Xylophone IS a transposing instrument : not reflected when swapping to Concert pitch
Hello, following other discussions (for example about piccolo), I found out that the current behavior of Musescore (1.2) does not conform to standard usage :
The xylophone instrument is currently assigned a treble "octava" clef, which is reflected in playback. Fine, at least for the score, in concert pitch : the note/octave is accurately notated, the ledger lines are avoided, and the playback octave is correct.
But the performer is expected to read from a normal treble clef – that is unquestionnably the practice – knowing that the xylophone sounds one octave higher than notated. That is, "his" middle C will sound one octave higher than the middle C of the piano.
When I toggle between "transposing/performing" pitch and concert pitch, nothing change on the xylophone part. Even when substituting a "normal" treble clef.
If only one could edit the "octava" treble clef to make the "8" invisible, that would provide a workaround. But as far as I could try, there is no "edit" mode available when double-clicking the clef.
Anyway, there should be a change when swapping to "Concert pitch" (and simply changing to a clef with no "8" would do fine).
Any way to implement this permanently, or achieve the desired result with 1.2 ?
Many thanks to all,
S.
For what it's worth, the glockenspiel (theoritically) sounds 2 octaves higher than written
Comments
Easily fixed: change the stave properties to transpose by an octave, than change to the desired clef
To have that as the default behavoir, adjust the relevant section in the instruments*.xml file you're using.
If you want it fixed in MuseScore 2.0, submit an issue
In reply to Easily fixed: change the by Jojo-Schmitz
thank you, I'll try that !
good to know that modifiyng the instruments.xml file isn't mandatory, because I don't know if I'm able to do that.
thanks again...
In reply to thank you, I'll try that by laconcombremasque
Not that I don't trust lacomcombremasque, I do, even if her nickname is weird :) but two opinions are better than one.
But can someone else confirm that xylophone should be notated with normal treble clef and transposed one octave lower or link to a reference. If it's the case, we should change instruments.xml in the next version.
In reply to Changing instruments.xml by [DELETED] 5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylophone claims:
The bass xylophone ranges are written from middle C to A an octave higher but sound one octave lower than written. The alto ranges are written from middle C to A an octave higher and sound as written. The soprano ranges are written from middle C to A an octave higher but sound one octave higher than written.
Source: Keetman, Gunild and Orff, Carl. (1958). Orff-Schulwerk Music for Children. English version adapted by Margaret Murray. London: Schott & Co. Ltd.
In reply to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ by Jojo-Schmitz
The wikipedia link is about Orff instruments : they are NOT the kind of instrument we're speaking about : "orchestral" xylophone (that's the same instrument used in percussion classrooms, ensembles, ragtime, contemporary music, etc). Orff stuff is only used for education.
Playing xylophone is (part of) my job as orchestral percussionist. I'll try to find a link to what I'm saying. Best is, one find a xylophone (I don't have one here), hit the middle C and hears for oneself (although hearing the right octave with keyboard percussion instruments is sometimes tricky without a good reference)
until later...
best regards
In reply to The wikipedia link is about by laconcombremasque
From earlier in the article:
"The xylophone is a transposing instrument: its parts are written one octave below the sounding notes."
In reply to From earlier in the by ChurchOrganist
Great, I've been looking for this but didn't see it :-(
That should be enough evidence than, shouldn't it?
I'm back on this issue. Sorry for sounding irrespecful if it was the case.
Do I understand correctly that Xylophone should be assigned a normal treble clef and sound one octave higher in normal mode and thus be notated one octave higher when switching in Concert Pitch mode? If yes, I will do the modification in instruments.xml. Is the range of the xylophone ok ?
Since we are at it, MuseScore defines also 3 other xylophones, does anybody know if they are transposing instrument?
Regarding the glockenspiel, it uses a G 15va clef. Do you mean it should use a G clef and be transposed 2 octave higher too? If yes, what about the two other glockenspiel (Orff Soprano and Orff Alto). And can anyone provide information about the other similar instruments, marimba, vibraphone, metallophone etc...
In reply to I'm back on this issue. Sorry by [DELETED] 5
I've always understood that this is what the octave clefs are for - to indicate that the instrument is playing in a different octave to that which is written.
Guitar music used to be writtten in treble clef until someone had the bright idea of adding a little 8 below the clef to indicate and octave down transposition.
I guess some people just haven't caught up with modern clef usages?
In reply to I've always understood that by ChurchOrganist
does anybody really use it?
I play bari sax, have books of popular guitar music and all I've ever seen is treble clef with no little 8s or 15s. Same with the my concert band tenor sax parts..
In reply to Maybe but by Zoots
Well I certainly do in my own writing, and you certainly find them in classical guitar music.
The tenor parts in choral music are usually written this way too in modern editions.
I wouldn't expect bari sax to use it because the conventions for sax players as well as a lot of brass is to read from treble clef with the appropriate transposition.
It's also possible that your guitar music editions are too old to show this - it is something that has emerged within the last 20 years or so, editions produced before the 80's would probably use the old system of a straight treble clef and expect the player to know the appropriate octave to play in.
In reply to I'm back on this issue. Sorry by [DELETED] 5
you understand correctly for both xylo & glock, and the concert pitch could show either the real notes 1 or two octaves up, or a treble clef with 8 or 15 (more legible yet with the correct sounding octave information)
I'll be back on the subject before the end of september if you want me to confirm exactly the ranges etc. vibes and marimba are sounding as notated.
all the best
In reply to you understand correctly for by laconcombremasque
Completely off topic for this thread but relevant to the development of MuseScore :)
Laconcombremasque are you able to assist with the percussion side of the Instrument definitions which we are making compatible with MusicXML 3.0 for version 2.0?
More info and access to the working spreadsheet here:
http://musescore.org/en/node/17630
If you can, let me have your email address through my user account here so I can give you editing access.
In reply to Laconcombremasque can you help??? by ChurchOrganist
I'll be happy to help
In reply to Laconcombremasque can you help??? by ChurchOrganist
Sorry it took so long,
here is a comprehensive post about orchestral mallet percussion instruments.
See the attached file for transposition information.
NOT FOUND: 1
You can double-check with other sources if you wish, but I already took the chance to check at a rehearsal break last week, with marimba, vibes and xylophone all in the same room. To be 600% sure...
Some mallet instruments exist in different sizes. Therefore, I have a secondary suggestion : one could turn the automatic coloring of notes (red indicating "out of range", green indicating "playable by experienced players") into a maybe useful advice to arrangers, by defining red as "out of maximal range" and green as "obtainable with the extended instrument":
A standard Vibraphone, like the one used in jazz, is 3 octaves from F to F (and sounds as written). But for contemporary music, you can have a 4 octave instrument, from C to C. So, notes outside this 4 octave range should be red, and low C to F and high F to C could be coloured in green, to indicate that these notes might be playable, but drawing attention that it should be clearly indicated that a 4 octave-instrument is needed.
Xylophones sound one octave higher than written. It is a transposing instrument and should be notated in normal treble clef, not the "octava alta" one, because the player just plays what is written on his part and knows the instrument sounds higher. Else, with a 8va clef, a "written in sounding pitches / sons réels" indication would be missing on the performer's part (which would be confusing because the octava clef isn't found that often, and people wouldn't notice it).
What strongly I advise is this :
in "concert pitch", the automatic behaviour should be treble clef with octava sign (sounding correct and written accurately regarding concert pitch)
but outside "concert pitch" mode, a regular treble clef is required, and the instrument is to be played back one octave higher [see Post-Scriptum about saxophones].
Xylophones existed in 3 octaves models, but 3,5 octaves (F-C) is the well-established norm. 4 octaves (c-c) instruments are also available http://www.adams-music.com/pf/products/xylophones/.
Same remark as with the vibes regarding colors.
Glockenspiel (played with mallets, not keyboard – the keyed glockenspiel as a bigger range) exists in many different sizes : Unavailable pitches on a particular instrument, forcing the musician to play some passages at a different octave, can explain the present confusion about how this instrument sounds compared to how it is written. The second reason for this confusion is that some parts written for an extended-range keyed-glockensiel are commonly played on a mallet instrument, causing the need for some further transposition.
The smallest orchestral glockenspiel is 2 octaves, from C to C. The most common Glockenspiel (in a case) are 2.5 octaves (G-C or F-C). Bigger instruments are 3 octaves from C to C, and in order to play accurately the high pitches needed for Debussy, Janacek, Messiaen and others, symphonic orchestras normally use wider range intruments like http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/percussions/orchestr… (3 1/3 octave from C to E) or http://www.marimbas.com/glocks.php or http://www.studio49.de/RoyalPercussion/html/englisch/glocken/glockenspi… or http://www.bergerault.com/products/professional-percussions/glockenspie… .
In written form, I do advise to abbreviate Glockenspiel as "Glsp", avoiding the confusion caused by Glock. (short for Glocken, which would indicate tubular or church bells), even if percussionnists do use "Glock" when they speak.
Official transposition for the Glockenspiel is 2 octaves (see the Grove for example : http://snipurl.com/25gynng ) : It will sound 2 octaves higher than written.
I suggest this behaviour : for legibility reasons, in "concert pitch" mode the glockenspiel should be written using a "15 treble clef", which would change to normal treble clef in the other mode, the transposition making the pitches sounding 2 octaves higher when played back.
Marimba (that I would abbreviate as "Mba") sounds as written, in treble clef or on a "piano staff" when needed. It was 4 octaves at its smallest, then a 4 1/3 marimba (low A) was a standard for some time (and is still widely sold, played and written for), before makers and composers started a trend toward to basses, with low F (or low E in the casse of Musser) instruments, before establishing the 5 octave marimba as a new standard. But, as these low pitches specifically call for a different instrument than the smaller marimba which is still widely found and used, I would advise to set to "green color" the low range, from low C to G#, the "safe standard" beeing a 4 1/3 octave instrument.
As a bonus, and because the instrument is not to be found in today's Musescore list, I shall mention the Xylorimba, or Xylo-marimba. This instrument always causes headaches to performers and orchestra managers because it is not that common in the real world, although composers starting with Messiaen just expected a wooden instrument with an extended range. In this purpose the French maker Bergerault did manufacture a 5 octave marimba, but with the added octave up (not like the modern 5 octave marimba, extended in the bass). See this article http://nexuspercussion.com/2005/06/what-is-a-xylorimba/ (I would agree with the "marimba tuning" for the xylorimba but this is beyond the scope of our matter. Anyway, regarding playback sound if you add the instrument to Musescore, I would simply use a regular Marimba sound).
I would advise to add the Xylorimba to the instruments list, with this standard range : that of a four octave marimba + one octave upwards, sounding as written.
To conclude with an anecdote, when I performed Messiaen's "Sept Haï-kaï" under Pierre boulez, no Xylorimba was available anywhere, and I realised that most of my fellow collegues simply used a marimba and transposed the unavailable pitches (ruining the musical effect of long 16th-notes runs from low to high). I did use a regular marimba as well, but had an extension made with the missing notes by a xylophone maker. Et voilà ! But, at least in Europe you can still find old Bergerault Xylorimbas.
I hope this information is helpful. All the best, and thanks for all your coding efforts.
Sylvain
PS 1 I can't speak for the saxophones players, but the clef behaviour I suggest for the xylophone (8va clef for concert pitch, changed to regular treble clef in "transposing view") would be great also for saxophones : I enter the notes in Concert pitch, and an Octava clef would help prevent ledger lines, while beeing still correct theoritically : Avoiding ledger lines is not only a matter of comfort, making the score more legible, but avoids too much layout changes between the "concert pitch" version of a score and its "transposing" counterpart (with ledger lines one needs for sure a lot of staff spacers, that are unnecessary when turning later to normal view).
PS 2 Bonus : link to an interesting site about Deagan instruments from the XXth century, the Deagan ressource. http://www.deaganresource.com/
In reply to Final info about the transposing issue by laconcombremasque
I have just incorporated the information you have provided into the Google Docs spreadsheet containing the new instruments.xml definitions.
It would be most helpful if you could check that I have got it right :)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArcZM0RQwkwSdHVObzE2MktxS0…