Can't create measure 8 of El Noi
No matter what I try, I can't get measure 8 of El Noi de la Mare to work, When I insert all upper voice notes, then go to lower voice, it just won't let me enter it correctly. I can't get the lower voice eighth note C# to enter.
What am I doing wrong?
| Attachment | Size |
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| Scan0293.pdf | 317.21 KB |
Comments
Use voice 1, 2 and 4.
I don't see how that measure would any different from m4 though in that respect.
Can you share the score file itself up to what you've entered and then tell us exactly where to click/what buttons to press to get your non-functional effect?
In reply to Use voice 1, 2 and 4 by jeetee
Thanks. Here's what I have so far. In measure 8, how can I enter a stems down, dotted quarter note low D (drop D tuning) under the dotted D/A?
In reply to Thanks. Here's what I have… by LBrandt
I see you've chosen to only use voices 1 and 2 for the already entered measures. Instead of also using voice 4 where appropriate.
Just as you've used voice 2, you can use an additional voice again to introduce yet another rhythm independent line into the score. As in a multi-voice context the stems of 1 & 3 go up and 2 & 4 go down, I'd opt for 1, 2 and 4 as the used voices here.
As we're only sharing pictures of scores:
![306240.png]( "306240.png")
In reply to I see you've chosen to only… by jeetee
Thanks again,
So you are saying that I should use voice 1 (blue in the example), voice 2 (brown for middle in example) and voice 4 low (green)? I will try that.
In reply to I see you've chosen to only… by jeetee
When I try voice 4, the software won't let me position the note under the D/A. It's as if the system won't let me enter a different voice there.
In reply to When I try voice 4, the… by LBrandt
Except that green is voice 2 in my example, yes that is what I suggested and is working for me.
So I'll repeat my question again: and then tell us exactly where to click/what buttons to press to get your non-functional effect
Because obviously we're doing something different to enter those notes.
In reply to Except that green is voice 2… by jeetee
Thanks again, I do appreciate your help. I suppose that I'm doing something wrong, and I'm new to Musescore, but after entering the upper voice notes, when I try to enter the low D on beat 4 using voice 4, it won't let me. When I move the left or right arrows to try to get under the D/A, it won't let me go there. It acts as if there are no remaining beats that I can use.
If this is unclear, forgive me, but I just can't get the lower voice to work on beat 4.
In reply to Thanks again, I do… by LBrandt
Any reason that you want that note to be voice 4 (other than the example from myself above) when all your other low notes are already in voice 2?
I think the part you're struggling with it that notation always starts from left to right, for each voice. So if you want to enter something on beat 4, then the first 3 beats have to exist as well. If those first three beats don't contain sound/notes then you should notate 3 beats of not-sound (thus a rest) first, which then brings you automatically onto the 4th beat.
You can enter a rest by right-clicking with the mouse or the default shortcut key 0.
In a multi voice context it isn't always clear which rests should be visible and which should be invisible. Keep in mind that voice 1 must always be complete, so you can't delete those rests (but you can hide them if need be). For unwanted rests in other voices I'd advise you to make them invisible, which will make later adjustments easier if they need to happen. You can delete them if you so wish though.
Note that if you follow the voicing from the original scan you shared more closely, that for that particular measure you have to hide no rests at all, because all voices will be completely filled with notes.
In reply to Any reason that you want… by jeetee
Thanks again. I understand what you are saying about making sure that the first 3 beats are shown (notes or rests), but no matter what I do, I can't get the result that I want.
I will just have to keep working on it, and maybe it will finally become clear as to what I'm doing wrong.
Thanks to all.
In reply to Thanks again. I understand… by LBrandt
The first three beats in that voice
In reply to The first three beats in… by jeetee
Yes, I understand. The beats are relative to the voice in question.
I'll just keep working on it, and maybe it will all finally work for me. The only reason that I'm trying to use
Musescore is that I have several handwritten scores that are hard to read, and I'd like to get them into a nice readable format.
Thanks for all of your help.
In reply to The first three beats in… by jeetee
Here is the score that I'm trying to get into Musescore.
In reply to Here is the score that I'm… by LBrandt
I know that this is asking a lot, but could someone take this handwritten score and just create measure 8 for me and tell me each step that you entered? If you don't have the time, I understand and apologize for asking.
Best wishes,
Louis
In reply to I know that this is asking a… by LBrandt
You show two versions as attachments: one, Segovia's version (revised by Tari Jinariu), the second, Miguel Llobet's handwritten version. Prefer the second one: the treatment of the bass line (two dotted quarter notes) and the intermediate line (voice 2) are adequate. For the first one: it is an editing error, probably, I have not checked with my own editions. And that is why you could not enter C# (the intermediate voice being already complete).
See:
In reply to . by cadiz1
Thank you so much. Yes, I knew that the Tavi version was a little different. I will try to use what you've shown me and hopefully, it will work this time.
Best wishes,
Louis
In reply to I know that this is asking a… by LBrandt
I'm a very keyboard oriented user, but I tried to include the note input toolbar in my screengrab so you can follow along what's happening:
Enter voice 1
N 4 . E 3 F 4 C Shift+E 5 . A Shift+D
← ← ← ←
Enter voice 2
Ctrl+Alt+2
4 D C G Ctrl+↓ 5 G 4 F
← ← ← ← ←
Enter voice 4
Ctrl+Alt+4
5 . A Ctrl+↓ D Ctrl+↓
Adjust positions to avoid weird collision with dots
Select bottom voice 4 notes, X-offset of the chord of
-1,25spSelect colliding voice 2 notes, X-offset of the chord of
1spResult attached
In reply to I'm a very keyboard oriented… by jeetee
Hello,
I don't know your name, but I can't thank you enough. You outdid yourself in helping me! I've been playing classical guitar for some time, but I've just recently started trying to use Musescore. I will take what you've shown me and hopefully, this time it will work for me.
Very best wishes,
Louis
In reply to I'm a very keyboard oriented… by jeetee
I was able to get a successful measure 8 using your analysis. Question: What is the Shift+E and Shift+D doing?
Louis
In reply to I was able to get a… by LBrandt
Holding Shift whilst typing the notename is telling MuseScore that you wish to build a chord (in the current voice) rather than enter the next note.
See https://musescore.org/en/handbook/note-input#keyboard for a reference on the shortcuts used.
In reply to Holding Shift whilst typing… by jeetee
Thanks again!
Best wishes,
Louis
In reply to Holding Shift whilst typing… by jeetee
One more question, and if I'm asking too many, let me know.
Was it necessary to use 3 voices? Could all of the lower voice notes have used the same voice?
Louis
In reply to One more question, and if I… by LBrandt
Of course, three voices. Necessarily.
In reply to . by cadiz1
Thanks again,
Louis
In reply to One more question, and if I… by LBrandt
Indeed, 3 voices are required here. A voice is a rhythmically independent melody within the staff/measure. When notes belong to the same voice, they must have the same rhythm. As soon as the rhythms differ, those notes can no longer be notated as a single chord, thus one has to resort to using an additional voice for it.
In reply to Indeed, 3 voices are… by jeetee
Thanks again,
Louis
In reply to Indeed, 3 voices are… by jeetee
Hello again,
Let me make sure that I understand something. If I'm entering notes/chords for voice 1, MUST I completely finish voice 1 (even if it requires entering rests) before moving to another voice, or can I move to a second voice and later come back to finish entering notes/rests for voice 1?
Louis
In reply to Hello again, Let me make… by LBrandt
You can come back later to any voice and do them in any order you please.
In reply to You can come back later to… by jeetee
Thanks again, I know that you're probably tired of my questions, but I do appreciate your help.
Best wishes,
Louis
In reply to You can come back later to… by jeetee
Still one more question about voices:
If I inadvertently enter a note in the wrong voice (say it should be voice 2 but I enter it as voice 4 (for example), provided that I don't exceed the beat count for that voice, will Musescore let me do that?
In reply to Still one more question… by LBrandt
Yes, just click the note in normal (not note input) mode and press the button for the voice you want to move it to. If it can be moved, it will be (exception is tuplets).
In reply to Yes, just click the note in… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks Marc,
Louis
In reply to Yes, just click the note in… by Marc Sabatella
Marc,
After I replied to you and thought a minute, I realized that you are the one who wrote the book! I bought your book a few weeks ago. Of course, this begs the question, why, if I have the Musescore book, am I asking so many questions? I'm not new to guitar, but I'm new to Musescore, and even though it seems to be a well written piece of software with every possible option for writing sheet music, it takes a while to understand it all, so if I seem to be slow in understanding how it works, please excuse.
Best regards,
Louis
In reply to Marc, After I replied to you… by LBrandt
Don't ever feel sorry for asking your questions on here :)
In reply to Don't ever feel sorry for… by jeetee
Thanks again. Hopefully, I'll get to the point where I understand it all. In the meantime, thanks again to all of you!
Louis
In reply to Marc, After I replied to you… by LBrandt
Marc,
I find that I have still another question, and it's also about voices. Why, is Musescore allowing the multiple notes of a chord to have the same voice? Isn't it a musical truth that a chord with multiple notes on a single stem consists of multiple voices? Yet, some of the examples that I've seen in reply to my questions appear to have two or three note chords on a single stem in one voice.
Am I missing something?
Louis
In reply to Marc, I find that I have… by LBrandt
The whole point of a chord is tho have multiple notes in the same voice. Separate voices are needed only when you need to show independent rhythms. Not sure what "musical truth" you refer too - most chords are just chords. Sure., for voice leading purposes we might want to look at them as if they were separate voices, but that doesn't literally mean we notated them that way.
In reply to The whole point of a chord… by Marc Sabatella
Marc,
I didn't mean to sound arrogant when I used the term "musical truth". I'm certainly not a musical authority.
I just meant that in reality, doesn't each note in a chord indicate a different voice, as if they were actual singing voices?
Louis
In reply to Marc, I didn't mean to sound… by LBrandt
As I said, from a purely musical perspective, yes it can make sense to think of them that way. But from a notational perspective - no, throughout history they are notated as simple chords except where it is necessary to show independence of the voices in terms of rhythm or counterpoint.
In reply to As I said, from a purely… by Marc Sabatella
Marc,
I understand. Can we agree that, in a pure sense, the notes in a chord are separate voices, but since an instrument can create a single sound from that chord, that in notation purposes, they can be thought of as a single voice? And of course, Musescore, with a maximum of 4 voices, could not handle a really full chord as separate voices.
In any case, I do think that with all of the help that I've gotten from this forum, I can now use Musescore and correctly enter multiple voices.
And I hope that I haven't overstayed my presence and can ask more questions on this forum, should I need more help.
Very best wishes to all,
Louis
In reply to Marc, I understand. Can we… by LBrandt
I would still say that’s going too far. In some cases, in some contexts, the notes of successive chords can be seen as separate voices. But sometimes a chord is just a chord. Chords really are something quite distinct from multiple voices, and it is important - both musically and notationally - to understand this.
In reply to I would still say that’s… by Marc Sabatella
Well, I guess that we can agree to disagree. If I play a 3 note C major chord as a block chord, it makes a single sound and therefore, one could assert that the single sound represents one voice, but if I ask a single person to sing the 3 notes of the chord as one sound, the person will say that it can't be done and requires 3 separate voices. An instrument can make a chord sound like a single voice, but that chord is representing 3 separate voices.
In any case, thanks again for all of your help and very best regards,
Louis
In reply to Well, I guess that we can… by LBrandt
Well, the majority of uses of chords are exactly that case - several motes played around once on an instrument capable of it. If you limit your consideration to vocal music only, then it starts to make more sense to think in terms of voices. Still, there is a very clear distinction on music notation between how you write multiple voices versus how you write chords even when writing vocal music - it has to do with how the stems align. if you put multiple note heads on a single stem, it’s a chord. If you separate the stems in any way, it isn’t. This is just how it is, how it has been for centuries, no amount of choosing to disagree will go back in time and rewrite the rules of notation
In reply to Well, the majority of uses… by Marc Sabatella
Marc, compared to me, you are a giant, musically. I will have to give your words some time to mull over in my mind.
I continue to thank you and everyone on the forum who responded to my many questions,
Again, very best regards, and stay safe.
Louis
In reply to Thanks. Here's what I have… by LBrandt
“Can you share the score file itself “ - share the MSCZ file, please. This is the best way to let others see what you have done so far and what can be done to help you.
In reply to “Can you share the score… by underquark
Here is what I have so far.