Add scrollbars. And allow keeping them displayed
Sibelius has these cool bars on the bottom and right hand side of the score that allow the user to pan the score around really fast to see different parts (see screenshot). I can't see them anywhere in the View menu in Musescore.
It would be great if Musescore could add them too. Quite a few apps on Windows use them and it makes navigation really fast compared to clicking and dragging with the mouse multiple times.
I see Musescore does have a "navigator" bar. Three problems though:
1) the little white page blocks above it take up unnecessary space
2) it doesn't allow you to scroll vertically with any accuracy
3) it doesn't stay open by default either per score or globally as a setting
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Comments
Scroll up/down with the mouse wheel, left/right with Shift+mouse wheel, zoom with Ctrl+mouse-wheel
Sliders do take away screen real estate, see your point 1
Your point 3: you can have it always open, globally, via Preferences
In reply to Scroll with the mouse wheel by Jojo-Schmitz
And there is the timeline which can be toggled on and off with f12. That gives a very quick way to navigate to a specific measure and to specific items like key changes, time signature changes, repeats, jumps etc. And even better, you can use it to toggle the visibility in the score of individual instruments. Much more useful than the navigator I think.
In reply to And there is the timeline… by SteveBlower
So I personally have no use for the Timeline. Which makes me wonder - how does Musescore make design decisions? Is it simply the person talking loudest on and most frequently on a forum? Arguing the 'theoretical' merits of a certain widget?
Is there a head designer scrutinising the telemetry data of which features are used most (which could easily tell us if people prefer the Timeline to the Navigator)
If we had a big Discord server (this is the only one I can find https://discord.gg/bap836X and is tiny) we could make polls on these issues at least
In reply to So I personally have no use… by Richard Cooke
"I personally have no use for the Timeline." So, you personally can untick the timeline box in the view menu and forget it ever existed. Those of us who personally do have a use for the time line can tick that box. It's a process known as personalisation - ever heard of it?
In reply to So I personally have no use… by Richard Cooke
Most design decisions so far have been made collectively by the development team based on user input that accumulates over the years. Sometimes it really is one person championing an idea. In the case of Timeline, it's the fact that lots of people liked the similar feature in other programs that probably sold it.
Now, we have @tantacrul as our head of design, so there is actually a person in charge of the process.
In reply to Most design decisions so far… by Marc Sabatella
timeline actually was a GSoC project
In reply to timeline actually was a GSoC… by Jojo-Schmitz
Indeed, but it got added to the ideas list because of requests from Sibelius users I believe.
In reply to Scroll with the mouse wheel by Jojo-Schmitz
Thanks, I didn't know there was a setting for navigator always open
In reply to Thanks, I didn't know there… by Richard Cooke
Richard, I'm with you. As someone who uses very few keyboard shortcuts I find having to use them to move around a score is just one more thing I have to try to remember. Home, End, PGUP, PGDN are clumsy at best. I use a roller ball mouse so with scrollbars I can place a note, scroll to another location, place a dynamic, scroll else ware and do any number of things all with two or three fingers of one hand. There is no hand movement, also. I don't use navigator, either. No personalization needed.
I doubt anyone else works this way. Or even heard of a roller ball mouse. Mine is very old with the roller under the thumb. The last time I saw one, the roller was under the middle finger.
Still scroll bars would be nice.
In reply to Richard, I'm with you. As… by bobjp
Scroll (wheel or ball doesn't matter), possibly plus Shift is doing all this without the need for scrollbars
In reply to Scroll (wheel or ball doesn… by Jojo-Schmitz
Believe me, I understand. And most people certainly do that. But with my mouse I almost never have to touch the keyboard except to move around in the score or delete things. I know that using a mouse is not the most efficient way to do things in MuseScore. Especially with a normal mouse. With my mouse there is no hand movement. I can move around the screen very quickly. You guys that do most everything with shortcuts are faster. But for me, it's not about speed mostly. It's more about consistency. As in the more I can do with the mouse, the better.
Most other programs that I am aware of have scroll bars at least when whatever you are looking at is bigger than the screen.
In reply to Believe me, I understand… by bobjp
There's the navigator too and the timeline, for horizontal moves using the mouse. Got to be enough
In reply to Believe me, I understand… by bobjp
So, you are clear that you can already scroll with your mouse, trackball, touch pad, or virtually any other pointing device, no need for scroll bars? Assuming your device supports the basic wheel functionality, you're good to go, right?
Just wanted to reiterate, using the mosue to drag the score is almost never the most efficient way to navigate. The scroll wheel or equivalent touch gesture - two-figner swipe, for example - is almost always far better. But also consider the keys built into most keyboards - PgUp/PgDn/Home/End, or the equivalent Fn+Up/Down/Left/Right. Plus the navigator, plus the Find command, and the Timeline, which I think you will find more useful than you might think when working with large scores, since all pages start to look alike but the Timeline really shows you the structure.
In reply to Just wanted to reiterate,… by Marc Sabatella
Mouse scrolling is possible - but it's either imprecise or slow, depending on your mouse scroll speed. (And assumes you have a mouse wheel.) On the other hand, scroll bars are very fast to use, accurate, an expected interaction mechanism to new users, and take up no space if you are zoomed out. If you have an option to hide them then everyone is happy and can use the app as they prefer.
For a lot of the issues people log, it's not that something is functionally impossible - it's that there are much faster, easier, or more enjoyable ways of interaction. I've read many Musescore requests that are disregarded by the organisers on here because there are other existing ways of doing things - even though the user's suggested way might be better. Or massive design flaw issues marked as "by design", when the design itself is the thing that needs to change. I understand issues have to be prioritised, but they shouldn't be ignored/closed - just moved down the list for later
In reply to Mouse scrolling is possible … by Richard Cooke
I'm not opposed to giving people the option of sacrificing screen real estate to get scrollbars. I'm just trying to make sure that people understand what is already possible. Many of the requests for scrollbars come from people who simply don't realize the mouse wheel or equivalent touch gesture is a thing, and once they are made aware of it, they realize it meets their needs even better. But indeed, there can be a few people with particular touch devices, or with unique requirements in some other way, for which it doesn't meet the need, and someday I do hope to see a feature added to support those people.
If you feel there is a massive design flaw somewhere, feel free to start a forum thread about it. This is what we usually recommend first before submitting issues to the tracker, because again, many people create issues not realizing there are reasons things are the way they are. The forum os a great place to discuss such things in greater detail and then is there is consensus that a real problem exists, the issue can be create din a way that makes sense.
In reply to Just wanted to reiterate,… by Marc Sabatella
Sorry, one more thing - do you think the Timeline is more useful than scrollbars, or do the majority of users? Is there a poll or something? Because choices like these should be made based on evidence - what do users actually want.
In reply to Sorry, one more thing - do… by Richard Cooke
I would say the answer to this question is the same as the answer to the question, which is more useful, a fish or a bicycle. The timeline serves a very important purpose that scrollbars could never ever possibly duplicate - helping you navigate a large score by its structure. Like, "I want to jump to that place where it goes into 3/4", or "I want to see where the trombones come in". And yes, this was a requested feature, users of other notation software that provide this feature tend to expect it. Scrollbars solves a different problem, one that is also often solved by simply using the mouse wheel, but as you observe, there a few special cases where that might not be sufficient. And indeed, the timeline doesn't really help well with those particular special cases.
In reply to I would say the answer to… by Marc Sabatella
Compared to how much real estate the timeline, palettes, and the inspector take, scroll bars seem insignificant. I tend to open the inspector only for the few times I need it. I agree that the time line can take me to a particular tempo or meter change, and what not. I still have to open it (scroll around if looking for an instrument) Then close it after I'm done
The wheel can scroll up and down but left and right can be a problem. Grab and drag is slow, as well as dangerous. I can't tell you how many time I've grabbed an element instead of a blank spot, and spread something across 2 pages.
Besides, scroll bars are in every software I can think of. Video editors, word processors, notation programs, forums, and many others.
In reply to Compared to how much real… by bobjp
Yes, software written more than 10 years ago generally includes scroll bars, maybe not so common in modern software that tends to use other gestures. But indeed, as I said, worth adding as an option for those who wish it. And like the timeline, palettes, and inspector, they must be optional, because sometimes (almost always, in the case of scrollbars) you don't need them.
Scrolling horizontally with the wheel is easy, just use Shift+wheel. Grad and drag is indeed slow, but no one is suggesting that as a viable way of scrolling.
In reply to Yes, software written more… by Marc Sabatella
Easy, but requires both hands.
Latest version of MS Office, and Adobe After Effects to name two have scroll bars. Sure, apps made for tablets use other methods to move around. I don't do much serious work on a tablet.
In reply to Compared to how much real… by bobjp
If it is a scroll bar instead of the navigator or timeline, then indeed this might be something to consider
In reply to If it is a scroll bar… by Jojo-Schmitz
If it's a hideable scroll bar in addition to the existing hideable navigator and hideable time line, then why not? But I would miss the timeline if it was replaced by scroll bars. The navigator, I could manage without, but each to his/her own).
In reply to If it's a hideable scroll… by SteveBlower
That's what I mean. not getting rid of timeline or navigator, just not show it together with a score bar
In reply to If it is a scroll bar… by Jojo-Schmitz
Yeah, just like this in the menu one day
In reply to Yeah, just like this in the… by Richard Cooke
I notice that there is a scrollbar in both the navigator and the time line.
As long as there is an option to make the scroll bars always active. If I have to start them everytime I open the software. It starts to defeat the purpose for me.
In reply to I notice that there is a… by bobjp
Probably the navigator and the time line were written more than 10 years ago
In reply to Probably the navigator and… by frfancha
Yes for the navigator, but the timeline is fairly new, maybe 3 years. First available with MuseScore 3, so less than 2 years IIRC
In reply to Yes for the navigator, but… by Jojo-Schmitz
The tick boxes in the view menu are preserved between sessions. Whatever "toys" you see when you close MuseScore you should also see when you start it next time. Also the navigator and timeline have shortcut toggles and I expect scroll bars could as well.
There should be enough flexibility there to provide a personal setup to suit most users.