tab rhythm signs are below staff
I am trying to make a simple 2 part lute tab piece. I decided to use two voices for this so that it sounds right. However the rhythm signs for the second voice ended up below that tab staff.
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How can I get the 2nd voice rhythms above the staff
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How can I combine the first and 2nd voices so that they come out right. For example in the first measure, the top voice has two half notes, but together with the second voice the signs should be notated as one half note and two quarter notes.
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Related question: how can I double the value of the rhythm signs.
version 3.6.2.548020600 Revision 3224f34
Thank you in advance.
Attachment | Size |
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Der Hoff Dantz.mscz | 13.82 KB |
Comments
First of all you'd need to fix the corruption: "Measure 16, Staff1, Voice 2 too long. Expected: 2/2; Found: 6/4
That might fix/answer your 2nd question already
1) by swapping voice 1 and 2. Probably not what you want...
2) see above?
3) by doubling the duration of the corresponding notes
In reply to First of all you'd need to… by Jojo-Schmitz
I'm not entirely sure I understood everything in your request, but would it be better this way? 1Der Hoff Dantz.mscz
In reply to I'm not entirely sure I… by cadiz1
After rereading your request, I see that it contains a contradiction, or simply an impossibility. You write: "I decided to use two voices for this so that it sounds right"
That is, each voice contains rhythmically the right notes values.
In this case, the only way to reach it is as MuseScore does, i.e. to display a voice 1 above and a voice 2 below (like the file I attached - and yours)
You understand that it is not possible to display two voices with different rhythms in the same place. It would be incomprehensible and a pure mess.
So, if you want everything to be displayed above, you must necessarily use only one voice.
Like Gerbode does for example - image below. But of course, the playback will be more choppy and it will be up to the player to determine what is held or not etc.
In short, you have to make a choice and give preference to either: : playback (2 voices, above/below), or display above, with notes values in 1 voice.
In reply to After rereading your request… by cadiz1
Thank you. So you are saying it is impossible to have it notated properly, as Sarge has done, and sound as it would if played properly. Okay, I understand and can live with that. I just didn't know it was impossible.
Perusing some answers about merging, it seems that is not going to work, no? Maybe I could select all and minimize the values to one flag or two. Anyone done something like that? Sorry this is only the second piece for me. I still know nothing.
In reply to Thank you. So you are saying… by edurbrow
You can try (not my cup of tea, but why not if you are happy with it):
https://musescore.org/en/handbook/3/piano-roll-editor
And also: https://musescore.org/en/node/323083
In reply to Thank you. So you are saying… by edurbrow
You could move voice 2 to voice 3 to see if that helps.
Voices 1 and 3 have stems up; 2 and 4 have stems down.
Combining rhythms would be very helpful but it got the thumbs down here:
https://musescore.org/en/node/319324
In reply to You could move voice 2 to… by yonah_ag
No, we come back to the starting point, if you change voice 2 for voice 3, all the symbols are up, but rhythmically, it's wrong: there are too many beats (5 beats for example in the first measure), and we don't know, e.g. for the first dotted quarter note, to which voice it belongs. And so on, for following measures.
In reply to . by cadiz1
It's technically rhythmically correct as the overall rhythm is exactly the same as using voices 1 and 2. There are not really too many beats because they are in different voices and this distinction can be shown by using colours or shorter stems.
In reply to It's technically… by yonah_ag
Using colors to indicate the different voices of the polyphony in historical lute tablatures simply does not exist.
"It's technically rhythmically correct as the overall rhythm is exactly the same as using voices 1 and 2."
No.
In reply to . by cadiz1
Fair enough.
In reply to . by cadiz1
Your statement "Using colors to indicate the different voices of the polyphony in historical lute tablatures simply does not exist" is contradicted by historical 16th-century Spanish vihuela tablatures (Fuenllana, Pisador, etc.) This method appeared in historical prints to indicate which voice of the polyphony was meant to be sung as the player struggled through a five- or six-part motet. Of course these niceties disappeared in the 20th-century black and white facsimiles, but can be found in online sources scanned in color.
In reply to Your statement "Using colors… by mignarda
Don't get me wrong, you answered without understanding (or simply reading?) who my previous answer was addressed to.
Of course, you are right when you write: "this method appeared in historical prints to indicate which voice of the polyphony was meant to be sung as the player struggled through a five- or six-part motet. "
I know this perfectly well, I play the lute and the vihuela myself. Also in Valderrabano, Silva de Sirenas.
So I was answering @yonah_ag who wrote, I quote: "There are not really too many beats because they are in different voices and this distinction can be shown by using colours..."
I was writing that no, simply because have we ever seen in a historical tablature, all the different voices colored (not only 1 voice, sung), for example the upper voice colored let's say in red (!), the bass line in blue, and the intermediate voices in green and orange (or others!) No, so, and this was my point.
In reply to . by cadiz1
Yes.
If you play it back then you can hear that it is correct. If you inspect the piano roll editor you can see that it is correct. The only problem, (a very real one), is that the notation reader cannot readily see that it is correct because the stems cannot be distinguished per voice.
In reply to Yes. If you play it back… by yonah_ag
Kind of strange that I'm receiving a whole slew of messages on this topic suddenly a year later. The good thing is that it shows I've made quite a bit of progress in the learning of this program, as I was a real newbie then.
Thanks for being there.
In reply to After rereading your request… by cadiz1
I searched for merge voices, but every answer seems to talk about staves. I reduced the rhythmic values, but I can't figure out how to merge them.
In reply to I searched for merge voices,… by edurbrow
Forget with two voices. See previous reply (links: Piano Roll, and "Let Ring" plugout)
EDIT: "So you are saying it is impossible to have it notated properly, as Sarge has done, and sound as it would if played properly."
By using one voice, it's notated properly, as Sarge Gerbode has done (and it's the historical display, i.e. all rhythm symbols above the staff)
For a properly playback, you should use other ways: "Piano roll" etc. Sarge Gerbode don't use them. You can listen with Fronimo (free version) its files, the playback is choppy.
This is not its purpose and concern. These sound files are just a temporary help (a first listening) before going to the Pdf file itself.
In reply to Forget with two voices. See… by cadiz1
Yonah's Let Ring plugout is located here.
That page includes links to discussions that occurred prior to and during its development.
scorster
In reply to Forget with two voices. See… by cadiz1
Yes, I get it. I'm not overly concerned with playback, just on an accurate tab score. So how do I salvage some of this so I don't have to start from zero? I tried to select one voice, but I can't. If I click on one cypher as soon as I click on another with the shift key held down, it puts a blue frame around the measure. I cannot figure out how to merge these voices. Searching for answers to this question seems to indicate that it is possible to merge staves, but it doesn't look easy or straightforward. I could find nothing about merging verses within ONE staff.
Thank you in advance.
In reply to I searched for merge voices,… by edurbrow
I don't understand your score, (it's not like any TAB that I have seen before), but my plugout understood it and this is what it did to it on default settings:
Der Hoff Dantz - LR.mscz
This is just using the Let Ring plugout but the Accent Map plugout might also help.
In reply to I don't understand your… by yonah_ag
The "Let Ring" effect works best with a soundfont that has long sustain.
In reply to I don't understand your… by yonah_ag
Wowl... nice job on feeding your creation lute TAB to see what happens!
Now all the 16th century lutenists who are "Lute TAB only" players can enjoy this enhanced playback. It is quite a remarkable difference comparing the playback.of the two identically notated lute scores -- one without, and one with, 'Let Ring'.
In reply to Wowl... nice job on feeding… by Jm6stringer
So, it's lute TAB. Looks better than guitar TAB but must work the same way since the plugout functioned correctly. Can Musescore convert it into guitar TAB?
In reply to So, it's lute TAB. Looks… by yonah_ag
Copy/paste seems to work from one to the other.
In reply to Copy/paste seems to work… by Jm6stringer
My understanding is that the numeric/fretwise underpinnings of guitar and lute tablature are the same. But to display French lute tablature an encoding system replaces the chars 0 through 9 with glyphs a through j. (Note that Italian tablature uses numbers like modern tablature.)
So for French tablature:
0 displays a
1 displays b
2 displays r (r because a con a tablaure line may look like an e)
and so on:
3 = d
4 = e
5 = f
6 = g
7 = h
8 = i
9 = j
I thought the encoding might exist in the font itself, by having:
the lute a glyph in the Unicode UTF-8 encoding slot U+0030 (for the char 0)
the lute b glyph in the Unicode UTF-8 encoding slot U+0031 (for the char 1)
etc.
But that wouldn’t account for fret numbers higher than 9 … and when I set the fontFace for lute tab to MuseScore Tab Sans, the letters a through j persist for numbers 0 through 9 (UTF-8 U+0030 through U+0039. So museScore must have an internal mechanism that handles the situation, and allow k for 10, ** l** for 11, m for 12
… unless the lute font has a 10 glyph at U+003A, an 11 glyph at U+003, etc.
Anybody know how this is managed?
More on Unicode font encoding.
In reply to My understanding is that the… by scorster
Documented in handbook: https://musescore.org/en/handbook/3/tablature#enter-notes
In reply to Documented in handbook:… by cadiz1
Sure enough (as expressed in Entry 5 of the Handbook page you referenced) we see tablature entry handled by
scorster
In reply to Documented in handbook:… by cadiz1
I had seen that, but it didn't make sense the first time around. Now I'm getting it.
In reply to I don't understand your… by yonah_ag
You may not recognize the tab format because it is for lute. ALL the rhythm signs should be above the stave. If I could figure out how to do that, I think I could correct any anomalies.
In reply to You may not recognize the… by edurbrow
"ALL the rhythm signs should be above the stave. If I could figure out how to do that, "
As already said, the only way is to enter all notes in 1 voice - image below
(so, with known limitation for playback, except by using indicated tools)
If not, you will encounter this problem: https://musescore.org/en/node/326269#comment-1103890
EDIT: Eventually, what can be done is to write the score with a lute all in 1 voice, and then redo it with another lute in 2 voices. Then, disable the playback of the first lute, and hide (in the Instruments dialog) the display of the second one. But this requires more work.
This gives (after having deactivated the playback of the first instrument/lute): 2Der Hoff Dantz.mscz
Then, after having hidden the second instrument: 3Der Hoff Dantz.mscz
And now, you have the appropriated display and better playback. But, as said, more work... :)
Is it worth it since you say you are not too attached to playback?
I'm getting much closer to the way it should appear. I used Tools -> Implode on the score yonah_ag sent me and then used Tools -> Voices -> Exchange Voices (I think. I can't believe I've forgotten exactly what I did 5 minutes ago!) I then went in Normal mode and deleted superfluous notes. Now I've got all the rhythm signs above the staff, but I'd like to get rid of all the unnecessary ones. In the original German tab it has a rhythm sign for every note or chord, but in conventional modern French tab transcriptions they usually don't put in a rhythm sign unless the rhythm changes. I can't click and delete the individual rhythm signs.
Also, I can see the line breaks are still there, but the lines are split between them. For example, line one should have 7 measures not just 4, lines 2 & 3: 8 measures, line 4: 7 measures, line 5: 8 measures, line 6: 7 measures and the last line just 3 measures. That would correspond to the German tab.
In reply to I'm getting much closer to… by edurbrow
"In the original German tab it has a rhythm sign for every note or chord, but in conventional modern French tab transcriptions they usually don't put in a rhythm sign unless the rhythm changes. "
Right, but choosing to display "Stems and Beams" is anachronistic for a score of that period (although it is convenient nowadays, I understand) and not intended by the programm.
That's why the "Repeat" function (Never, Always etc.) is disabled. See:
However, when you choose to display the "Note symbols", then it becomes active.
In short, you have to make choices :)
EDIT: in this case (Never repeat, with Note symbols), you can get: 4'Der Hoff Dantz-5.mscz
In reply to "In the original German tab… by cadiz1
Where did you find these screen shots? When I choose instruments, though it says lute tablature on the right, I cannot find anything like that. I cannot find lute as a choice on the left either.
I want to transcribe this into modern French tab and notation so everybody can understand it. This is for a lecture.
In reply to Where did you find these… by edurbrow
Screen shots? Right-click on the TAB -> Staff/parts properties -> Advanced style properties
"I want to transcribe this into modern French tab and notation so everybody can understand it."
Yes, I completely understand your project. Except that the program, as it was designed by an early music specialist, indicates a contradiction for both historical fret marks (with numbers or letters) and a modern stems and beams display.
And the display of note symbols is perfectly clear (as you say, sometimes rhythms are shown only when they change). Any lute player can understand it.
Then, free of you to make compromises as you like, it will be your choice.
In reply to I'm getting much closer to… by edurbrow
You can't delete stems or beams but you can make any of them invisible from the inspector.
In reply to You can't delete stems or… by yonah_ag
I was thinking that. I forgot you had to open the inspector to make that work. Thank you.
In reply to You can't delete stems or… by yonah_ag
"You can't delete stems or beams but you can make any of them invisible from the inspector."
The display of stems and beams (as it appears in the so-called modern tablatures) simply does not exist in the historical tablatures.
In reply to . by cadiz1
I don't understand what you are saying about stems and beams not existing historically. Do you mean like the grid system where they cross beams over stems for several notes? You can find all kinds of flag systems at nearly any time in the 16th century. Marco da Aquilla, for example, notates exactly like "modern" French tab, that is one flag and then lots of notes with the same value. Hans Newsidler uses a grid system, Judenkünig uses a separate flag for every note.... There is an example of almost every system at all times in the 16th cen. It just depends on the typesetter or scribe.
What I'm trying to do is notate this in a modern way. I want French tab and a score transcription. I haven't figured out how to get G and F clef (piano) notation to display at the same time. I think it will be a disaster, now that I've reduced the note value to get it to look right.
I really appreciate your help with this. You know your tab!
In reply to I don't understand what you… by edurbrow
Yes, there are several displays at this time, but again, not in the modern stems AND beams STYLE.
" Marco da Aquilla, for example, notates exactly like "modern" French tab, that is one flag and then lots of notes with the same value."
Not exactly :) Flags and no beams.
See this facsimile of Dal Aquila's ricercar 33:
In reply to . by cadiz1
So when you say modern beam style, do you mean where beams are over repeated notes? I prefer this Marco-type style. I think it is the easiest for people to understand.
I will never make the mistake of putting the lute tab in two voices again. What a mess. It must be hard to make a proper lute tab together with a transcription in piano notation that reflects the voice leading in Musescore. I may have to do them separately.
In reply to So when you say modern beam… by edurbrow
"So when you say modern beam style, do you mean where beams are over repeated notes?"
If we are thinking the same thing, yes (English is not my mother tongue)
"I will never make the mistake of putting the lute tab in two voices again. What a mess"
Wise decision.
In reply to I'm getting much closer to… by edurbrow
@edurbrow
Why are there so many rests in your score, or is this normal for lute tab?
In reply to Why are there so many rests… by yonah_ag
That is weird. Mine doesn't look like that. The reason there are so many rests, I think, is that I originally made the values larger, but for half a measure notes (half note or minim equivalents) it put no flags, so I selected all and reduced the note values.
Mine looks like the screen shot.
In reply to That is weird. Mine doesn't… by edurbrow
How do you know when to play each note since, with hidden rests, your measures do not appear to add up to 4/4 time?
In reply to Why are there so many rests… by yonah_ag
Hi yonah,
I see those rests when I toggle the staff type to Standard, but I didn't see a way to reveal rests in the tablature, though I did look for a way to do so. How did you make the rests show in tablature while retaining the French style? Seeing them in the tablature would help me in clearing them out, which is essential in producing the desired rhythmic symbols.
scorster
In reply to Hi yonah, I see those rests… by scorster
Rests are usually not indicated in lute tablature. When they are, they just put a rhythm sign with no note underneath.
In reply to Hi yonah, I see those rests… by scorster
In the advanced style properties there is a tick box to show rests.
https://musescore.org/en/handbook/3/staff-part-properties#advanced-styl…
(All these rests are contributing to the short note playback in the pre Let Ring version.)
In reply to In the advanced style… by yonah_ag
Hi Yonah,
I thought it was in there somewhere. Thanks!
I probably looked five times, but I forget about the Note Values tab, where tucked away at the bottom we find the Show rests checkbox.
scorster
I don't know anything about this composer nor the piece itself, but the underlying rhythm sounds distinctly like a triple meter.
So I ventured a new rendering where:
Der Hoff Dantz - 1 voice 3-2 meter LR_0.mscz
This may not take the score in a direction you want, but it shows some possibilities.
scorster
In reply to I don't know anything about… by scorster
This is one of the topics of my little lecture. Barlines at this time were pretty meaningless. The composer is JudenKönig and this was published in 1515 in German tablature, which I don't think Musescore can do.
Your version in 3 and in notes may be useful. Thank you.
In reply to This is one of the topics of… by edurbrow
"The composer is JudenKönig and this was published in 1515 in German tablature, which I don't think Musescore can do."
I confirm, the German tablature (understood and used by some specialists) is not supported by MuseScore.
One can understand why :)
(image below)
In reply to "The composer is JudenKönig… by cadiz1
Sebastian Virdung said of Conrad Paumann, who was blind and invented German tab so that every cipher represented a different note: "he was blind and he made German tablature to make the seeing blind." :-)