Smart Slur-Creation

• Nov 13, 2023 - 01:02

Good evening MuseScore team! Here is a suggestion to reduce the time needed to create multiple slurs over multiple notes between rests.
First, I have selected the notes I want to write slurs over (see below). Rather than creating one large slur over all of the notes and rests, I want to create multiple slurs over every note that is NOT separated by a rest.
Screenshot 2023-11-12 at 7.54.49 PM.png
Here is what I want the slur(s) to look like:
Screenshot 2023-11-12 at 7.55.41 PM.png
And here is what the current version of MuseScore 4 does if I press the shortcut "s."
Screenshot 2023-11-12 at 7.55.03 PM.png
A simple solution would be to keep the "s" hotkey the same, but add a new one for smart slur-creation. This vastly improves the rate at which the user can write and revise music!


Comments

And how would MuseScore have a clue what you what you want slurred. As it is, it is doing exactly what you told it to do.

In reply to by bobjp

I don’t believe starting and ending slurs between something as simple as a starting and stopping point (the rest) should require that much technical effort. In fact, it already knows how to do it, as you can see that it creates slurs in the bottom stave I posted after the first rest. If I was, for example, trying to automatically create different slurs on different instruments at once based on something like dynamics or articulations, it wouldn’t be possible without an overhaul, but I don’t think what I suggested would be as difficult to achieve.

In reply to by outkast58

But I think it more likely that the starting and stopping point would not always be a rest. It might be a longer or shorter note. It might be a particular figure. Or group of notes that repeat. Or a mixture. The software (programmer) has no idea.

In reply to by bobjp

None of those would require a starting or stopping point because it’s universally understood that slurs can go over them. A slur going over a rest is not impossible, but is uncommon and unidiomatic unless used for rare expressions or cross/staff beams. Statistically, there is far less of a need for a slur to go over a rest than there is a for a slur to be separated by rests. No point in having to waste time doing it yourself when we can implement a toggle-able feature to correct phrasing with ease. You could even create an editable filter (similar to what Finale has) to allow broken phrasing between the points you described. These efficiencies add up when composing (especially now that MuseScore has a professional following) and should be considered for reducing the time spent engraving.

In reply to by outkast58

I'm not talking about a slur going over a rest or over anything. I'm talking about how MU4 might guess where you want slurs. The example you posted has very clear places where slurs might go. So, of course, It seems easy. But not all phrases are that simple.
BTW, if it would be so easy to implement your idea, you can certainly give it a try. MuseScore is open source and the code is readily available.
I also use MU4 for composing. And mostly for playback. It is hard for me to consider any part of having the score be the way I want, to be a waste of time. Though MU4 doesn't playback slurs. That seems more important to me than having slurs entered more quickly.

In reply to by bobjp

MuseScore does not need to "guess" anything if a system is in place to identify where phrasing should be cut. Yes, not all phrases are separated by rests, but the feature might not be limited to rests. Imagine revising the phrasing of 30 music bars with a clear idea of where you want the slurs placed. You may want them to cover only the sixteenth notes and stop at the eighth notes. You could edit the filter to do just that. Why would anyone be opposed to a significant time-saver?
Of course, I'm not a programmer. That's why I posted this here instead of creating a plugin. But as Jojo said, a plugin could implement this. If anyone here is a skilled coder, they could go ahead and do it. Rather than ruling out ideas immediately, it is more reasonable to practice experimentation and trial-and-error, as many professional coders and designers do. Maybe you're right. This may not work. But you will know once you try.
MuseScore not playing back slurs is something to be fixed, but I don't understand how its importance with regard to my suggestion implies that both additions should be disjunctionally exclusive. You can include many contrasting features in each update: minuscule details and complete overrides.
I don't want to come off as righteous here. I don't prioritize my ideas over others. However, this forum is a place for community input and requests, something MuseScore has encouraged since its inception. Therefore, it is sensible to welcome suggestions, no matter their relative value.

In reply to by outkast58

I'm not ruling out anything. I'm not discounting your idea. I'm discussing how it might work. I'm all for saving time. I'm asking anyone reading this how might this work? To me phrasing is never limited to what kind of notes or rests are present. I might want a melody that is made up of different note values and then repeated in other voices a measure apart. but with one or two different notes. Or more or less notes. What parameters would I set for a line or two of this kind of thing? Would I have to reset things in the plugin each time I need to use it? If so, I'm not sure that saves time.
I get that you are looking at this and saying "why not". You think that I am saying "why". I'm only asking "how".

In reply to by bobjp

Okay, thank you for clarifying your intentions;

Yes, phrasing depends on user desire. Some types of phrasing, like complex ones that you've described, may be unsupported by a simple plugin/feature like this. However, let's cite standard examples of musical literature to understand the statistical application of phrasing.

Here is an excerpt from Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring,
Screenshot 2023-11-15 at 4.31.01 PM.png
In this example, similar phrasing guidelines to what I described apply. Slur markings are only to begin on sixteenth-note tuplets and will always end on eighth notes. Moreover, slur markings will end on notes marked with "staccato." These runs appear multiple times throughout this movement. I could input two values to change the phrasing to what we see here. Start: 16th, and end: 8th (or stacc). Then, I can highlight the entire group in question, press a shortcut, and immediately see the results I seek.

Here's another example from Grainger's Lincolnshire Posy,
Screenshot 2023-11-15 at 4.44.30 PM.png
These would be identical to what I described above. If you were to highlight this whole section in MuseScore currently, it would draw a slur over the entire run. Editing the filter would allow us to remove correct phrasing immediately. You might say that this doesn't save time due to the short duration of this run. However, keep in mind that this run takes place in multiple instruments. It also is simply an example, and a professional composer writing runs like this may write ones that are far longer.

Here's another one from Lutoslawski's Concerto for Orchestra,
Screenshot 2023-11-15 at 4.50.39 PM.png
This is almost identical to the example I provided in my original post, where slurs should be separated based on rest. Note that this system could allow immediate smart slur-creation in multiple layers such that the above is true. This would save the user from having to switch between modes.

This one is from Weber's Clarinet Concerto No. 2,
Screenshot 2023-11-15 at 4.59.00 PM.png
These slurs could be created with the "begin on accents" guideline or "only cover six notes." Specifying the amount of notes you want each slur to cover could be incredibly useful for consistent, simple runs like this. Maybe this feature could be implemented in the form of highlighting an excerpt and then pressing S+6, or S+X, with X being the number of notes each slur should cover.

Your immediate thought might be that I'm "cherry-picking" excerpts to prove my point. However, I could find several other instances if I wanted to. When discussing design, it is crucial to appeal to various audiences. While some may not use a feature, others may save time with it. Not everyone needs to use fretboard diagrams or tablature styles, but they're still included for the "what if?" scenario.

There can be several layers to this feature. The simplest would be what I initially described, where slurs will not cover rests unless stated otherwise. Or, for a more complex addition like you inquired about, you could implement the "filter" idea. I imagine it would look similar to Finale's dialogue boxes for "tuplet properties" or "edit filter." (see below)
Screenshot 2023-11-15 at 5.02.12 PM.png
Screenshot 2023-11-15 at 5.05.43 PM.png
Finale could use some cleaning up regarding these, but you get the idea. Entering values may be complicated for new users, so we could change it to a slider or dropdown. There are plenty of ways to implement this with brainstorming, and I created this post for others to give their ideas.

(If anyone thinks this is too complicated, you can let me know. However, I've only taken the idea this far as per Bob’s suggestion. The initial objective of this post was to cut slurs over rests.)

In reply to by outkast58

Well thought out, to be sure.
I don't write anything remotely close to the examples you site. Nothing formulaic and rhythmically repetitive. I wouldn't call my needs complex at all. But I can see that there are those that could see this as useful. So yes, for me your idea is way too complicated.
Hopefully someone else will chime in.

In reply to by bobjp

It honestly isn’t a huge time-saver, but I think that incorporating this level of detail into the program could put MuseScore on the map of professional, profitable notation programs. It’s already gained incredible recognition this year, and we can continue to push it further from here. I would love to see the automatic condensing from Dorico implemented at some point if it hasn’t been already.

In reply to by outkast58

I agree that as far as creating a printed score, MuseScore is right up there. But that is where it stops. I write for Playback. While Muse Sounds is a vast improvement, there are still serious problems. My list is long, indeed. I know that notation software is not intended for great playback. But many settings are missing that would help.

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