Staves/systems overflowing side margins
I have an engraving job where the music staves go all the way to the page margins (because PDFs of the pages are being dropped into an InDesign book). Certain scores in this project have the problem illustrated in the attachment. Problem is, the 2nd staff wants to go off the edge of the page & it persists in doing this no matter where I put the system breaks. I've had this problem with several scores where the only solution I could come up with was to move the barlines, but that isn't an option with this piece and I'm at wits' end. How do I fix this?
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Comments
BTW by "move the barlines" I mean deleting & inserting barlines. On this piece, I've actually pushed all the barlines, except the repeat sign, forward by 2 beats without resolving the issue. By "where I put the system breaks" I mean how may measures allowed per system & I've tried just about every combination of that w/o resolving the issue.
In reply to BTW by "move the barlines" I… by rdfishjr
Guess what I did that finally worked! I typed the whole g****** score over again. Now tell me what I can do short of that to fix this. Thanks!
In reply to Guess what I did that… by rdfishjr
Speaking from a Finale perspective, is it possible in MSS to redefine a page size and margins?
In reply to Speaking from a Finale… by mikey12045
You can set page size and margins, but apparently sometimes a staff will overflow these settings.
In reply to You can set page size and… by rdfishjr
Ah. Thanks for the info.
In reply to You can set page size and… by rdfishjr
No, it can't "overflow" those settings. The screenshot below is the equivalent of 16 measures in 4/4, stuffed into a single measure. It cannot "break" the system, but notice that it does not "overflow" the margin settings.
In some fashion, you have margins/page size set incorrectly for it to do what your screenshot shows. Post your score (the .MSCZ file) so that someone can look at it.
In reply to No, it can't "overflow"… by TheHutch
See my screenshot. It shows exactly what was happening and it didn't matter how many bars I tried to squeeze into one stave (the upper limit was determined by the lyrics). I never had this problem with MS 3 but it happens a lot with MS 4 and sometimes, but only sometimes, I can fix it by deleting barlines & inserting them elsewhere. Not always ideal. Anyway in this instance I can't send you the MS file because I overwrote it after retyping the music in a blank template.
In reply to See my screenshot. It shows… by rdfishjr
Sorry, but a screenshot is almost never much help. Except that it shows this page to be very narrow. Did you use margin settings to get this result? You could have made the scaling smaller. Not sure why you thought messing with barlines would really help when the notation just needs to be a bit smaller. All questions that could have been answered with the score posted.
In reply to Sorry, but a screenshot is… by bobjp
From memory, I used page settings to set the page size to 6" x 9" due to the page format of the book. I let the margins go to the edges of the page because margins are built into the page design in InDesign, where we're dropping MuseScore layouts & scaling to fit. The scaling is intended to make the score & lyrics readable in a hymnal format.
In reply to From memory, I used page… by rdfishjr
I'm talking about a setting in MU4. Go to Format>Page settings. There is a scaling setting that will reduce the over all size of the notation. Then all the music should end up within the page. I know you are used to setting the margins to the edge. Seems to me that that isn't always working for you, so maybe you might consider doing something different. Like setting the margins within the edge. Yes, you say you never had this problem with MU3. But MU4 isn't the same software. Since InDesign has it's own margin settings, what you set in MU4 shouldn't be a problem.
In reply to I'm talking about a setting… by bobjp
Thanks for your suggestions, but it would be even more appreciated if you could offer a suggestion other than (essentially) "the whole way you set about doing this project is wrong and you should start over." We're already hundreds of hymns into this and to keep the style consistent, that's what your suggestion would imply. It would also mean having to minutely adjust the layout of every page in InDesign so that the edges of the score hit the page margins exactly, which they currently do because of how these pages are set up, and probably have to change a lot more besides because we're already at the limit of the squint factor to read the contents of this book. What would be great would be directions to a menu or tool that would tell a staff to get back inside the margins that have been set. It doesn't seem reasonable to put this on me. This looks like an MU4 issue and it would be great if MU4 had a way to fix it. For reference here's a typical MU4 file from this project.
In reply to Thanks for your suggestions,… by rdfishjr
And here's a live example of a score in which the staff overflowing the margin is actually happening right now. Mind you, I haven't added lyrics, adjusted system breaks or tried moving barlines around, but I don't want to move barlines around. It seems MU4 is punishing me for changing the meter of selected measures.
In reply to And here's a live example of… by rdfishjr
Here is that same score with lyrics added. Ideally, I would keep it all on 3 systems to save room for the other stanzas below. But it looks like MU4 wants me to add system breaks somewhere. Will that work?
In reply to Here is that same score with… by rdfishjr
... And here it is again, answering the question in my last reply with a solid "No."
In reply to ... And here it is again,… by rdfishjr
... And here, for reference, is that score with the staff scaling bumped down a couple notches (i.e. clicking the down arrow on the selector). As you see, it made no difference.
In reply to ... And here, for reference,… by rdfishjr
... And here, for further reference, is that score with the left & right margins increased to 0.1 inches. As you can see, the offending system is now fully on the page but still overflows the margin that has been set for the whole page.
In reply to ... And here, for further… by rdfishjr
Finally, here is that score with both of your suggestions applied. Harder to read, harder to snap to the page margins in InDesign, but unchanged WRT the margin overflow issue that I am increasingly convinced is due to MU4's inability to cope with meter changes.
In reply to Finally, here is that score… by rdfishjr
No wait, I have one more possibility to try before I give up completely. Here's the same score but with 3 bars to a system. It looks ridiculous but the staff overflow issue is still present.
In reply to No wait, I have one more… by rdfishjr
And here's the score with this margin error fixed. If you compare it to the previous examples, you'll notice I delted & inserted barlines all over the place. I believe it was when I added the barline at "terrify / me" when the margin finally clicked. I hate that I have to do this because it's as if MU4 is telling me how to score my music when I want to be in control!!
In reply to And here's the score with… by rdfishjr
I've been watching this thread. And I'm a newbie, and all that, but...
I set my page size to 6 x 9, and side margins to .05. (I didn't worry about the vertical spacing.) I then went through, and set the time signatures for each measure that wasn't 4/4. I took the last iteration of the score that was posted, and copied and pasted it in to my new layout. No staff extended beyond the margins.
In reply to And here's the score with… by rdfishjr
Here is your notation on a page set to your specs. It never went off the page. Nor did I have to do anything with bar lines. I didn't add lyrics, but all that should do is change the number of measures on a line.
In reply to And here's a live example of… by rdfishjr
Rather than moving the barlines, I would suggest adjusting the time signatures of the measures that aren't 4/4.
In reply to Rather than moving the… by mikey12045
You can get rid of all the +'s and -'s by actually changing the meter, then hit "V" to make them invisible. Then uncheck "Show invisible" in View.
In reply to You can get rid of all the +… by bobjp
Thanks Mikey & Bob again for your suggestions, but this difficulty arises when I'm initially typing the score and that's when I do change the time signature (albeit hidden) for those bars that are not in 4/4. It's when I find that I have to arbitrarily change the meter of a bunch of measures (to fix this overflow issue) that I use the deleting & inserting barlines gimmick, which has been one of only 2 procedures that ever resolved the issue. (And it's a helluva lot faster than changing meters of one measure at a time; and by the way, I've been praying for years that MuseScore would make it possible to change the meter of a selected group of measures instead of either globally or one bar at a time.)
BTW the second of 2 procedures that I've tried that worked was to start all over and retype the score in a blank template w/the barlines already moved (e.g. instead of a 3-beat pickup, a 1-beat pickup; 3/4 bars instead of 6/4; etc.) and then save over the doc I was struggling with. This amount of do-over work would also be nice to avoid because as I may have mentioned, I'm doing a project with literally hundreds of these scores in it.
In reply to Thanks Mikey & Bob again for… by rdfishjr
What I'm saying is that I NEVER had an overflow situation while entering your music directly into a 6x9, no boarders format. I'm trying to understand how overflow happened for you. Because it doesn't happen for me. Changing the meter doesn't do it.
BTW, range select the measures you want to change and select the meter. I hope you aren't dragging anything.
In reply to What I'm saying is that I… by bobjp
MuseScore has never let me change meter of a selected region. Maybe I'm used to not trying from MU3 but I don't think that's the case. I keep having to select one measure at a time and change the meter. That's what I do when I'm initially typing the melody & I only resort to barline jiggery-pokery when I have to make rapid changes after something goes wrong. I honestly can't explain why MU4 is doing this. It shouldn't. And it only does so some of the time. And once it starts doing it, it persists in doing it until I either change where the barlines are (by whatever process you choose) or do the whole thing over.
In reply to MuseScore has never let me… by rdfishjr
I just experimentally reconfirmed that when I select a group of measures and go into Measure Properties to change the meter for those bars, it only affects the first measure of the group. But now that I try it, I find the result is different when I hit the time signature in the Time Signature palette. I thought that always changed everything globally or from that point in the document onward. I'm not sure whether to be embarrassed because I've been doing a pain-in-the-ass work around all these years, so many hundreds and hundreds of scores, or mad because it's another example of how many ways there are to do things in MuseScore that don't really work & how unlikely it is that I'll hit on the one that works by sheer luck.
In reply to I just experimentally… by rdfishjr
I can tell you exactly why I fell into that rut with Measure Properties (re changing the meter of selected measures) ... my template has a 1/4 pickup bar and even when I click right on it and select a different key signature, it stays a 1/4 pickup bar unless I do the Measure Properties thing. Kind of lulled me into thinking "if you want to change a meter other than globally, you have to do measure properites"
In reply to MuseScore has never let me… by rdfishjr
I assume that by "when something goes wrong", you mean that, for example, the music goes off the page. I would think that you could then hit "undo" and then try something different. Rather than fight with correcting the the problem after the fact.
Yes, when I entered your notation, I had the benefit of the meters you had already used. What is your source for the music? Perhaps you could post a screenshot so I could give it a try. Or even a sound file, if that is all you have. Just trying to help.
In reply to I assume that by "when… by bobjp
I'm going off either a PDF or an image file of a melody, either scanned from an old hymnbook or printed off a Word document that used those old Melody fonts from St. Meinrad's Abbey. I'm just typing in the notes as I see them but often making decisions about the meter like "this bar goes into 6/4" or "I insert a barline before this note & turn it into a repeat sign" and sometimes there are a 1st and 2nd ending, and at the end I'm deleting bars of rests. During the typing-in process I have tended to use "measure properties" dialog to change the meter of 1 bar at a time. And now and then, not very often, I look back after typing in a bit of melody and find that I have a staff or two that goes off the right edge of the page. The impression has been growing on me that MU doesn't care for meter changes.
In reply to I'm going off either a PDF… by rdfishjr
I would say that it’s always easier to do it right the first time, rather than post-correcting. As a thought, what about entering the music in horizontal (scroll view), and then returning to page view after the notes (and time signatures) have been corrected? Then, you can mess with the system breaks and measures per line.
Could you post a couple of the PDFs you’re starting from?
In reply to I would say that it’s always… by mikey12045
Always a wise approach but ... it's hard wisdom to hear when I'm entering the notes the way I think is correct and the engraving software seems to be corralling me toward a different result. If I could read the mind of MuseScore and anticipate what it wants me to type, how much easier life would be. Or if MuseScore would do what I tell it to do, whichever.
As for scroll view ... I've never held with that. I want to be seeing the page layout at all times.
Here are a couple examples of the sources I'm typing from, sometimes making my own editorial decisions along the way ...
In reply to Always a wise approach but … by rdfishjr
A page from a PDF document ...
In reply to A page from a PDF document … by rdfishjr
An image file ...
In reply to Always a wise approach but … by rdfishjr
All the music software I’m familiar with have their own preferred methods of use. I’ve found that it’s a lot easier to go with the flow, than trying to force the software to do it your way. As an example, I’m used to Finale. MuseScore has some of the same keystrokes, but often when I try to do something the Finale way, it just don’t work. So is it easier to be frustrated, or to do it MuseScore’s way?
My opinion only, of course.
In reply to I'm going off either a PDF… by rdfishjr
Two things jump out at me.
Inserting most anything can be a problem. If you have a 4/4 measure that needs a repeat sign after beat three, consider this instead: Change the "Time Signature" to 3/4 (and make it invisible) and then change the bar line to a repeat.
This is going to sound funny, but altering a measure in "Measure properties" is not the same thing as changing the "Time signature". I might only use measure properties for pick-ups and/or repeats.
I don't think time signature changes are the problem. Artificial changes like inserting bar lines, or several measure properties changes do seem to be the problem. That's why I would be interested in an example of what you are trying to do.
Hmmm. Just now, I'm looking through a 1958 Hymnal. The publisher has inserted thick bar lines in the music to denote the end of a phrase. What an odd practice. You can't just do this in notation software.
I just saw your example.
In reply to Two things jump out at me. … by bobjp
Signifying the ends of phrases is handled differently in all kinds of books. Sometimes the only barlines are between the phrases and have nothing to do with the meter or rhythm of the tune. Some books prefer 3-beat pickups to a phrase in 4/4 while others (most) do 1-beat pickups. Some put ties across barlines in preference to changing the meter. Bach's chorale harmonizations put a fermata over the end of every phrase. Little partial barlines, check marks, cesuras & those comma-like breath marks are also choices you see from time to time. I always hide the time signature in a hymn tune because I expect it to change multiple times in any given hymn tune and even when it doesn't, you can always figure out where beat 1 is (look for a barline right in front of it) and the rest of the math is easy.
In reply to Signifying the ends of… by rdfishjr
OK. here is how I would do the first part of the last piece in the word doc. You might do it differently, of course. The point is that nothing went off margin. I left the time signatures visible so yo could see easier where they are,
The other pieces seem pretty straight forward to me.
In reply to OK. here is how I would do… by bobjp
Possibly a bug
![culprit1.PNG]( "culprit1.PNG")
![culprit2.PNG]( "culprit2.PNG")
https://musescore.org/en/handbook/4/showing-staves-only-where-needed
NOTE: use the arrow buttons at the bottom left of window to access the Hide when empty staff property of F clef, not the G clef