Grand Staff for Treble Cleffers
Grand Staff for Treble Cleffers
Have you ever wished that the bass clef and treble clef lines and spaces had the same note names? This would mean only having to learn one clef to read piano music. Well, it turns out that this can be done and it's really simple.
In Musescore, open the clef palette, pick up the Treble clef 15ma bassa clef and drop it on to a bass clef in the score. As if by magic the bass stave notes can now be read according to treble clef rules. So, for example, the bottom line on the bass stave is now "E", (instead of "G"), which matches the treble clef.
You now have an easy to read Grand Staff with the treble and 'bass' staves 2 octaves apart.
Treble clef 15ma bassa clef :
Example
Original in F-Clef :
Transformed to G-Clef :
Here's the score that I stumbled across that uses this 'magic trick'
https://musescore.com/dragoi/study-for-g-clef-piano-solo-based-on-deck-…
Source: Andrei-Lucian Dragoi
Details: https://www.dragoii.com/gcp/ - including the picture below and how to do this with a paper score.
Comments
I don't recommend that you use this in scores you post. It will cause confusion because people used to reading a grand staff don't expect ottava clefs on their staves.
Anecdotally, when I first started using MuseScore I had never seen an alto clef (used by the viola) so I used the treble with 8vb to write for the viola. Once I was done composing my score I would change the clef to alto to publish it. Now I'm used to alto clef so I use that all the time. Your idea is a good learning tool but not good for real world use. Note: I still get confused when I have both a tenor (used for high notes on many bass instruments) and alto clef on a score and put the notes on the wrong lines.
In reply to I don't recommend that you… by mike320
Agreed!
The benefit for me is that it will make re-arranging piano scores for guitar so much easier and it may help other users in a similar way. (By the way, it's not my idea but I have cited the source in my post.)
I had no idea there were so many clefs until I saw Musescore's clef palette. What a nightmare!
In reply to Agreed! The benefit for me… by yonah_ag
If you want to see a lot of clefs, open a baroque era keyboard score with the clef changes entered by the composer. I don't think they liked ledger lines but clef changes were fine. Ugh! The few of those I've done I resorted to using the mouse to put notes on staves rather than keeping track of the location of middle C, which is the easiest way to tell where the other notes are.
In reply to If you want to see a lot of… by mike320
It sounds almost impossible to play such scores but just shows what our brains can achieve. I guess that notation will continue to evolve. Imagine the faces of baroque era composers if they saw Musescore desktop program!
In reply to It sounds almost impossible… by yonah_ag
Indeed! The faces of engravers also.
MuseScore features cut/copy/paste...
...definitely not available here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvyoKdW-Big
Regarding the treble clef vs. bass clef...
Since bass guitar essentially employs the 4 lowest sounding strings (albeit an octave lower) of a six string guitar, guitarists have been known to use this type of transposition when switching to playing bass, even the big stand-up acoustic (contra)bass.
For the record, that sort of thing as a way of simplifying your own process when transcribing makes sense, but definitely don't try to give actual pianists this to read. While one might naively assume having the same pitches on each staff would make more sense, it actually greatly complicates reading, because then you lose the beautiful and effective symmetry around C. Middle C is one ledger line below top staff, one above bottom; the next C above that is three spaces higher, next below is three spaces lower. And so on. We totally rely on this symmetry to read music visually; we don't resort to counting lines and spaces from the bottom.
In reply to For the record, that sort of… by Marc Sabatella
While one might naively assume having the same pitches on each staff would make more sense...
Actually, the different clefs indicate that they are not the same pitches - middle C (C4) on the upper staff happens to "look like" C2 on the lower staff.
Although they show the same staff position, their relative pitches are 2 octaves apart. Thus the clef.
I think the no-no is appropriating the grand staff...
![Muse_oh.png]( "Muse_oh.png")
Should such notation fall into unintended, unwary hands, a pianist may not appreciate the "tricky" logic of using that clef.
Anyway, I don't think the OP is considering such usage for final output but rather as a step towards consolidating a piano score into a (one staff) guitar score.
In reply to While one might naively… by Jm6stringer
Indeed, I'm addressing something only implied by not actually stated - the idea that there is something inherently sub-optimal about the existing grand staff (which is something beginners do often incorrectly assume). My point is that it might slow down learning for a month or two while you get the hang of it (assuming you practice enough to get there), but it speeds up reading for the rest of your life :-)
And yes, I mis-spoke slightly in saying "the same pitches on each staff", I meant, "the same mapping of lines to letter names". In other words, the idea of having the bottom line be "E'" on both staves.
In reply to While one might naively… by Jm6stringer
Just for arranging piano scores for guitar. It's already tricky enough accomodating the larger range of the piano without having to stumble over reading the bass clef so this neat little device is a real help.
There could be some confused pianists if they didn't notice the G bass clef!
In reply to Just for arranging piano… by yonah_ag
There could be some confused pianists if they didn't notice the G bass clef
Even if they did notice, it would still be confusing as in: "Why use what is normally the bass clef staff to notate "high notes" in treble clef only to drop them by not one, but two, octaves?"
(I realize you only use it to identify note names, rather than 'figuring out' bass clef).
Also... I looked at those links you provided...
With his grand staff project, Andrei-Lucian Dragoi is attempting to overcome centuries of built-up inertia. Change will not be easy.
Although...
At least you have found some use for it in transcribing piano works for guitar. People trained solely in G clef may also find it useful.
But...
If one ever wishes to play piano (without having to buy transcriptions from that weblink), best bet is to stick with the traditional grand staff with its single line for middle C - located between the two staves.
Finally, once you create your guitar score, destroy all copies of those (intermediate) grand staff files lest you be tempted to give them to an actual pianist... ;-)
Regards.