Concert Band Panning/Mixing
I've been looking around for a bit, but I can't seem to find any forums discussing how to pan/mix the instruments for a concert band. There are plenty for orchestra, though.
All I need is a list of values for each instrument's panning so I can tune them to their stage positions. This also includes instruments not included in Musescore's concert band template, namely the contrabass clarinet and english horn.
Please, and thank you.
Comments
Is there a standard layout for concert band? I have played in many bands over several decades. Each MD has their own ideas about seating and those ideas are very varied. Also consider that concert bands play in many different types of setting: stage, park band stand etc. with their individual constraints. When I dep in a new band, my first question is where do I sit? So, I think first you need to decide what layout you want. Then you can play with the mixer settings to get the effect you want.
Orchestras are slightly more standardised. Most I have played in have violins on the left, cellos and basses on the right with violas behind. But some have the violins split 1st on the left, 2nds on the right with cellos and basses behind 1st violins and violas behind 2nd violins. And then there are differences in where the brass go. Woodwind seems fairly settled in the centre.
I found a layout on the Internet and placed the Pan numbers (L:0, C:64, R:128) used by the Musescore software on it. I set the pan numbers in two different ways, in the center of the stage (linear) and relative to where the Conductor is standing (semi-exponential).
According to center of the stage:
![Concert_Band-Seats.png]( "Concert_Band-Seats.png")
In terms of Conductor's hearing angle:
![Concert_Band-conductors_hearing.png]( "Concert_Band-conductors_hearing.png")
PS:
You can place the Contrabass Clarinet on the right side of the Bass Clarinet and the English Horn on the right side of the Oboe.
If there are keyboards and bass guitar in the group, think of them as percussions and place them accordingly (Near the drum-set.)
In reply to I found a layout on the… by Ziya Mete Demircan
This is phenomenally helpful; thank you. This is different compared to the layout I'm used to, but I can adjust the placement thanks to the numbers you posted. Stellar job!
In reply to This is phenomenally helpful… by ARM Music
Based on your "different layout" answer: I made a blank PDF that I don't know how to use. :)
In reply to Based on your "different… by Ziya Mete Demircan
Even better; thanks!
In reply to Based on your "different… by Ziya Mete Demircan
Sorry to bother you way after the fact, but is it possible you could make one of these using Musescore 4's new panning range? It's a -100 to 100 scale instead of 0 to 127, so I don't know how to convert the panning template I made for Musescore 3.
In reply to Sorry to bother you way… by ARM Music
Take your pocket calculator and determine:
New_value = (Old_value - 63.5) x 1.575 (with small rounding errors).
New_vale in the range -100 to +100; Old_value had the range 0 to 127.
In reply to Take you pocket calculator… by HildeK
Extremely helpful; just converted my entire template with your equation. Thanks!
In reply to Extremely helpful; just… by ARM Music
Yes, you need a starting point. Instruments need to be panned. I'm just not sure how carried away you should get with exact numbers. Try an experiment.
If you mix in headphones, go ahead and set it up just the way you want. Then listen to the result on different systems. Through a speaker system. In ear buds. In your car. Even different speaker systems or different car systems. Each one will sound different. The trumpets (for example) might be too loud on one system and too soft on another. That timpani roll you worked so hard on (because rolls don't sound great) gets lost. You don't know what someone is going to listen on. Professional studios have ways to deal with this. Notation software does not.
In reply to Yes, you need a starting… by bobjp
This is pretty much for me and me alone because I think copyright prevents me from posting most of my projects.
What you say is true, though. The mix won't translate perfectly between different speakers, headphones, et cetera. But I'm not too worried since I'm just doing this for fun. I may be a hardcore perfectionist, but even I understand that I can't win 'em all.
That being said, your advice is sound. I'm curious to hear more, so please continue if you wish.
In reply to This is pretty much for me… by ARM Music
I, also, do this for myself for fun. But that doesn't mean we don't want the best result. And there's the rub. What is the best result? Recording studios have set standards they use for their productions. What they produce is what we are used to hearing as far as recordings go. But is the standard accurate. Recordings are how most of us listen to music. But then we go to a live concert. What we hear is different. And part of why it is different (along with dozens of other factors) is based on where we are in relation to the group playing. Recordings place us front and center. Great. But is that realistic?
More than that, just listen to the oboe player in the live concert. The player blends their sound just so, based on what they are hearing around them. The beautiful solo is totally dependant on what else is happening around them. With a few thousand dollars worth of samples and a DAW, you might be able to approach this. At least enough to convince most listeners. There is nothing like live music.
On the other hand, there is nothing like the music we are producing in MuseScore. I have been a member of a form of composers. The members that worked in a DAW often pointed out how unrealistic notation software output was. They are right. But what is realistic, and how do we achieve it? There have been those that think that adding delays or pitch variations are the way to do it. After all, real players don't play perfectly all the time. Maybe so, but introducing "mistakes" doesn't seem realistic to me. The goal of musicians is to play with, and in, and around all the other players. It is the job of musicians to blend with each other no matter what degree it is that they are placed at in the group.
I think that the job that we have as composers is to write good music. After all, a Bach fugue sounds good no matter what instruments are playing it.
In reply to I, also, do this for myself… by bobjp
Okay, this may be a bit much.
I get that it'll never sound completely realistic. Hearing this makes me doubt myself, though, like all the effort I put into making it sound better is pointless.
This is a hobby of mine, a place of comfort. It's not supposed to be stressful.
I know you aren't trying to stress me out, so I'm not upset with you.
Just remember that we have different philosophies; I'm not striving for absolute perfection.
In reply to Okay, this may be a bit much… by ARM Music
Sorry. I think you might misunderstand me. I'm not trying for perfection either. There is no such thing. All we can do is set things up in such a way that we enjoy what we hear. I think that this is the miracle of software. We have the chance to hear what we are writing in real time. Works for me. Have fun.
In reply to Sorry. I think you might… by bobjp
Of course, my mistake.
It's certainly a joy to hear a composition come to life, so I agree with you there. And Musescore 4 is a very special piece of software for what it is. I was initially displeased with Muse Sounds, but it's really grown on me. I have a feeling it could be an unbeatable software for its price bracket once everything is mostly ironed out.
In reply to Take you pocket calculator… by HildeK
By the way, how would I calculate for other ranges (such as -75 to 75 or -50 to 50)? I was gonna try editing parts of your equation, but I couldn't figure out which factors to change.
In reply to By the way, how would I… by ARM Music
Gladly, more general:
![WolframAlpha.png]( "WolframAlpha.png")
Given: Old_max (here: 127), Old_min (here: 0), New_max (e.g. 75), New_min (e.g. -75), OldVal.
What is being searched for: NewVal.
Then calculate:
With this equation, you can map each range a...b to a second range c ... d.
Using the numbers above for OldVal 110 and 33:
NewVal = 150/127 * (110-0) - 75 = +54.9
NewVal = 150/127 * (33-0) - 75 = -36.0
I hope I did not make a mistake, I'm a little out of practice ... :-)
The factor 1.575 in my equation above is the result of dividing the total new range by the total old range.
In reply to Gladly, more general: Given:… by HildeK
Also works for temperature conversion: °F or °C
;-)
In reply to Also works for temperature… by Jm6stringer
What is max and min there? (Fahrenheit and Celsius)
In reply to What is max and min there? by Jojo-Schmitz
The panning range in 3.6.2 can be set between its minimum value (0, Old_min; left) and its maximum value (127, Old_max; right).
The panning range of Muscores 4 is between -100 (New_min; left) and +100 (New_max; right) - at least this is what BRM Music has stated.
In reply to What is max and min there? by Jojo-Schmitz
100C = 212F
0C = 32F
T(C) = ( T(F) - 32 ) x 5/9
As an engineer studying while the UK was converting to metric measurements, such things are engraved deep in my memory.
In reply to 100C = 212F 0C = 32F T(C) = … by SteveBlower
Well, those are not min and max values, that's my point
In reply to Well, those are not min and… by Jojo-Schmitz
What else?
In 3.6.2. you can set between 0 and 127; just numbers with no senseful background; except they represent a binary 7 bit value.
OK, probably you replied on the temperature conversion ... :-)
In reply to What else? In 3.6.2. you can… by HildeK
Yep, i did
In reply to What is max and min there? by Jojo-Schmitz
@Jojo...you wrote:
What is max and min there? (Fahrenheit and Celsius)
Okay, as HildeK wrote:
The panning range of Muscores 4 is between -100 (New_min; left) and +100 (New_max; right)...
and
In 3.6.2. you can set between 0 and 127; just numbers with no senseful background; except they represent a binary 7 bit value.
So, min. and max. are used to establish comparable ranges in which to convert values from one scale to the other.
![conversion.png]( "conversion.png")
So, for liquid water, these min. and max. values can be used in the equation to convert water temperature:
(Who said math is not needed in music? ;-)
In reply to @Jojo...you wrote: What is… by Jm6stringer
> (Who said math is not needed in music? ;-)
![Math_in_Music.png]( "Math_in_Music.png")
Nobody!
Here are some tuning ratios (correct English expression?) for intervals. (Sorry, only available in German).
There is a lot of math!
In reply to > (Who said math is not… by HildeK
"There is a lot of math!"
Maybe, but were those applied after the fact? Or used to create the intervals?
Mathematical relationships may exist, but that doesn't always mean anything. I've never understood why it is so important to link the two.
We play the instruments and music that we have. Using the tunings that are the norm right now. Just like they did in the Renaissance. Which was much different than today. And in 3 or 4 hundred years who knows what the scale will be like. Math or no math. Math might explain it, but not create it.
Notation appears to be math. But if we never wrote anything down what would our music be like? Indian ragas are far more complicated than anything in Western music. They are passed down by rote. African drum rhythms can not be accurately notated.
I know this can be a hot topic. Sorry. I'm just having a little fun.
In reply to @Jojo...you wrote: What is… by Jm6stringer
Yeah, I got it, it just isn't max and min, just some known reference points ;-)
In reply to Yeah, I got it, it just isn… by Jojo-Schmitz
@Jojo... ...just some known reference points
Hmm...
My max. and min. refer to liquid water - just ask a glass of water. :-)
Though it's true that known reference points could be, for example, 10°C/59°F and 800°C/1472°F.
But that upper value is well beyond the max. for my poor glass of water. R.I.P... :-(
In reply to Gladly, more general: Given:… by HildeK
I must apologize and say I'm not a math person, so you'll have to hold my hand and walk me through this.
What I'm confused about are your example equations. Where did the 150 come from? Also, it looks like you subtracted where your equation says to add. I may just be stupid since it's math, but I'd like a little more help if it's not too much to ask.
In reply to Gladly, more general: Given:… by HildeK
Nvm I think I got it now
However, couldn't I just do the same thing of dividing the total new range by the old and use the same equation as before?
In reply to Nvm I think I got it now… by ARM Music
The 150 come from New_max - New_min = 75 - (-75) = 75+75, you asked for that example. Remember your math exercises :-). It is simply the total range width.
The old equation works only for mapping 0...127 to -100...+100. It is a special case for these two ranges.
If you want to map e.g. to a new range like -75 to 75, you need to adapt this factor 1.575 and the source must also start with zero. If you have an old range not going to 127, you must adapt the value 63.5 too, this is the midpoint of the old range.
My second equation works for all mapping variants, from any range to any other range.
In reply to The 150 come from New_max -… by HildeK
So I went ahead and kinda did that without your permission lol
Basically, I did the same step of subtracting the 63.5 from the old value. But when it came to the new -75 to 75 range, I used 1.181 (the number I got from dividing the new range by the old) instead of 1.575. I'm not sure if that's what I was supposed to do, but I did it anyway.
Whatever the case, I applied that new range to my score and it sounds absolutely beautiful. I'm grateful for all the help you've provided.
In reply to So I went ahead and kinda… by ARM Music
Yes, this factor is correct for mapping 0 to 127 into -75 to +75.
And subtracting 63.5 is also ok if your old range goes from 0 to 127. It is just 127 / 2.
In reply to Sorry to bother you way… by ARM Music
Attached :)
I adapted it to range -100, 0, 100, the values are integers. For simplicity, I think the rounding differences can be neglected.