Problem with key signatures, and missing parts, in the extracted parts
I attach a brass band score. The soprano cornet and the four Bb cornets are refusing to accept the key signature. Also, the four Bb cornets have disappeared in the extracted parts. I managed to get the key signatures to appear in the score by using the 'replace instrument' choice in the properties but the missing parts problem remains. I have reverted back to the original problem with the missing key signatures in the score.
I rarely use the repiano method in my writing which has not caused problems in the past.
Please note it is 'cornet' not 'cornett', thank you.
(The parts await editing.)
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Blues For Johnny.mscz | 417.58 KB |
Comments
I opened your file in MuS 3.6.2.
There the four Bb cornets are set as soprano cornets which are non transposing (in my humble understanding).
As I cannot use MuS 4 I only can say: Try to reset the parts or delete them and generate them again.
I assume, when replacing the instrument the parts get lost.
Perhaps you can continue with that what I modified (deleted all parts, set the staves to the Bb cornet, recreated the parts) in MuS 3.6.2 - see the attached file.
BTW: the cornet is written in German as "Kornett". In MuS 3.6.2 (English [US]) there is are 'cornetts' and 'cornets'. I am not familiar with those medieval cornetts and have no idea how they sound ...
![Instrument.png]( "Instrument.png")
In reply to I opened your file in MuS 3… by HildeK
Yes, but where did the four soprano parts come from? I used my standard template for the arrangement and when I extracted the parts what you see is what I got. Also, they are named soprano "1". Why is that? Nothing to do with me.
I managed to get the score into shape by changing the instruments, even though they should have been correct, but the mess with the extracted parts continues. Again, I have managed to create parts manually from a duplicated score and exported them to PDF so I managed to get the job done - commissioned by a championship band I used to blow with.
I don't think I have seen 'cornett' on a part during my 65 years of performing, but there might be one somewhere.
Soprano cornets are transposed down a minor third.
There are other weird problems with MuseScore4, some of which I have reported.
In reply to Yes, but where did the four… by John Morton
Without knowing what you did - the exact steps - to create this situation, it's impossible to say more. If you discover precise steps to reproduce this, let us know. meanwhile, we can just advise on how to fix it, so see my earlier response.
In reply to Without knowing what you did… by Marc Sabatella
I just checked my template and they are all soprano cornets??? How on Earth?
Is it possible that the linked file feature could have caused this? I have used this template many times.
The weird thing about all the soprano cornets is that they have the same content, and that can't be my fault.
You are still using my old email address. I have attempted to change it but I get a message telling me that my new address, johnmorton1939@gmail.com, is already taken (by me) so my profile is still showing the old address. This address will die soon.
In reply to I just checked my template… by John Morton
First, I'm not using email at all I'm responding in the forum, which is where you are posting. I guess your account must be set to send you notifications to the old address. You should log out, then, and log back in with your new email address, so future posts will send notifications to the correct place.
Anyhow, yes, it is strange that you have several parts with the same instruments. This doesn't happen normally unless you do something special to cause it - whether accidentally or on purpose. For instance, in the Parts window, if you click the "..." next to a part and then "Duplicate", that's exactly what is supposed to happen. If you ever remember what you did, let us know.
In reply to First, I'm not using email… by Marc Sabatella
It is a complete mystery. When I checked the template, I did it for the sake of thoroughness, I didn't expect there to be a problem. I definitely did not change the Bb's to Eb's. There would never be an instance of a layout like that. I've been arranging for brass bands with notation programs since 1994.
There were instances with early versions of 'Encore' where, not only the visible staffs (staves) had attributes, but the space they occupied, also, so if you dragged a staff using the 'hot spot' at the beginning (or added a new instrument as I did with the SOLO cornet line) the attributes would change according to the attributes ascribed to the new area.
I'm clutching at straws here, likewise my suggestion the linked file facility caused the problem.
With so many unknowns, it will be difficult for us to progress, so you may drop out, here, if you wish.
In reply to First, I'm not using email… by Marc Sabatella
I'm revisiting this to send a copy of my template, which lives on the desktop. As you will see, the Bb cornets are set as Eb's and the key signature is also wrong, should be 'A'. I did not do this, nor did I set anything as 'non-transposing'.
The screenshot shows what I get when I click on Alto Horn 1 in the parts. I have now deleted all extracted parts and started again, losing a day's work. The first two extracted parts are now blank.
In reply to I'm revisiting this to send… by johnmorton193
You are talking about templates.
![Templates.png]( "Templates.png")
Templates, which are usually located in the templates folder, are useful when you create scores for a specific band instrumentation. Only the type of instruments and their arrangement in the score are stored there. Own text styles are also recorded in it.
When creating a new score (File/New...), you can call this template under 'Custom Templates' and get the desired instruments and their arrangement in the score.
The number of bars, the key and the time signature are usually different for each piece and have to be chosen individually for every new score.
So it makes sense to create your own template with only the desired instrumentation included.
I have the impression you found a template somewhere and it doesn't fit your band.
My tip: create a new empty score, choose the instruments you need, arrange the order of the instruments according to your wishes and set the text styles. Save this file in the folder ../Documents/MuseScore4/Templates under any name.
When creating a new score, select this template under 'Custom Templates'.
> The screenshot shows what I get when I click on Alto Horn 1 in the parts.
Normally, parts are created for single instruments only. However, there is the possibility to create parts for more than one instrument for special applications. This was done for your alto horn part.
[Remark: my experience is from MuS 3.6.2]
In reply to You are talking about… by HildeK
I used the Musescore band template but made changes, cornets 1-4, because I didn't use the Repiano approach on this score. I have done this previously without problems.
I don't know where 'BassTuba' and 'Contrabass Tuba' came from. I never use those terms.
I did not do what you suggest I did for the alto horn part, although I know how to do it, of course.
I have just exported the score as a Music XML file and taken it into MuseScore 3, extracted the parts, and everything is fine.
Therefore, another suggestion, for what it is worth: I am using a 2013 27" iMac running OS 10.15.7. This is incompatible with the hub, as you know, so are there other incompatibility problems? My experience with Macs, since 1988, has taught me never to upgrade until I absolutely have to because of Apple's backward-compatibility approach.
In reply to I used the Musescore band… by johnmorton193
So my recommendation is to create a blank score with the instruments, arrangement and text styles you need for your band and save it under a template name in the templates folder. It doesn't matter what the key, time signature, or number of measures are. An existing score with notes is also suitable as a template: just copy it into the Templates folder.
For each new score, you then select it from the 'Custom Templates' and in this case you no longer use the predefined templates.
I don't think this has anything to do with your operating system or the age of your computer. I don't know the MAC OS, but with Windows 7, which I still use on a similarly old computer, I can't even install MuS 4, for example.
In reply to So my recommendation is to… by HildeK
Yes, thanks, I know how to do all this. I'm just puzzled about where the template on my desktop came from. I also thought there might be some significance in the fact that everything worked as normal in MuseScore 3.
In reply to I'm revisiting this to send… by johnmorton193
That template was created in MuseScore 4, so it couldn't have worked in MuseScore 3. Must be some other template you were using successfully in MuseScore 3. This one has the cornets set as concert pitch, spelled "cornett".
It's not clear what you mean about the screenshot. If you are concerned that it shows more than instrument, it must be you accidentally added multiple instruments to the part, but you can easily remove them again same you you presumably added them - by clicking the eye icon in the instruments panel while viewing the part.
In reply to That template was created in… by Marc Sabatella
You misunderstand me. I exported the 'finished' score as a Music XML file and took that into MuseScore 3 and everything worked fine, extracted parts, everything.
I don't know why my template was showing Bass Tuba and Contrabass Tuba, I never use those terms or why all the cornets were sopranos, again, I would never do that and, in any case, it wouldn't explain why the actual notated content was the same across some parts.
The screenshot, too, is a mystery. I've been on notation programs since 1994, and MuseScore since shortly after its inception so I know how things work. I did not create that layout, I absolutely promise you, why would I?
(Your palette is still weird, too, with icons stirring about when I use the selection arrow, and the line break tool in the layout keeps disappearing. I have to keep switching to the master palette.)
In reply to You misunderstand me. I… by johnmorton193
> I don't know why my template indicated bass tuba and contrabass tuba, I never use those terms, or why all cornets were sopranos.
But that means you didn't create the template yourself or accidentally overwrote it with something else.
If you tell me exactly which instruments (e.g. cornet in C or cornet in Bb) you want in which order in the template, I'll be happy to create one for you, but only for version 3.6.2.
But that's no problem, you can open it normally in MuS 4 and save it again as template for version 4.
In reply to > I don't know why my… by HildeK
Thank you but it's all done now. I can resolve almost anything by problem-solving but I'm a musician, my office isn't the IT department.
In reply to You misunderstand me. I… by johnmorton193
Well, if you don’t remember the steps that led to this, there isn’t much to be done. Instruments don’t rename themselves or change their transpositions magically - it has to be in response to some specific action, whether intended or not. So if you ever do figure out how to reproduce this, let us know.
As for the palette, I’m guessing you are trying to drag elements from the palette to your score? This isn’t recommended - dragging is you you customize the palette, rearranging its contents to suit your needs. There is a special facility where MuseScore tries to detect whether you are dragging to customize the palette or dragging to add to your score, but every once in a way it fails and you’re left with an empty space. But it fixes itself when you restart the program.
To be clear, the recommended way to add items from the palette is to simply click them to apply to the selected elements in your score. It’s much more efficient than dragging - both because it eliminates the need to drag, and also because you can apply to multiple elements at once.
In reply to Well, if you don’t remember… by Marc Sabatella
They don't. I made that point earlier but I need to understand how the heck I did this, so it doesn't happen again. In other words, how the program provides circumstances, so readily, for human frailty to become manifest. To me, I felt confident my method of working was as usual.
Regarding the palette, if that's how things work, that's how they work, but not being able to drag is unusual. Consider the other dragging moves that are OK in the program. I can't understand why being able to drag palette items about is useful or desirable. In my own experience, that IS unique.
I think we really have exhausted this topic, now, thank you.
In reply to They don't. I made that… by johnmorton193
For the record, I didn't say you can't drag; I said it isn't recommended because it's extremely inefficient compared to simply clicking. There also happens to be a rare bug where every once in a while you get left with a hole that fixes itself on restart, but so far no one has succeeded in figuring out exactly how to reproduce this.
Being able to customize your palette is quite useful; it allows you to place all your commonly used elements together so you're not constantly hunting around for things scattered all over palettes. Again, it's all about efficiency.
In reply to For the record, I didn't say… by Marc Sabatella
Yes. I know that, and there are indeed bugs around but if efficiency is your aim, you might consider putting the menus in alphabetical order. If I go into 'Style' > 'Text', for example, it takes a while to find what I'm looking for.
Has anyone figured out where 'Contrabass Tuba' and 'Bass Tuba' came from? Not me, and I only have one brass band template on the desktop. I didn't bring one in from somewhere else, either. I am re-visiting this problem because it has a bearing on claims that computers don't 'do things by themselves' which, although strictly true, isn't helping at present.
In reply to Yes. I know that, and there… by johnmorton193
Hello,
which alphabetic order do you mean? English? German? French? African? ...
In reply to Hello, which alphabetic… by Pentatonus
I am full of admiration for those who produce any kind of computer program that works and I understand the amount of work involved in continuing the linguistic adaptations to involve the menus, also. Normally, I could be accused of being self-centred but English is the international language and the only language that people feel they MUST learn, however many languages they are proficient in.
In reply to Yes. I know that, and there… by johnmorton193
Alphabetic order is efficient for lists where you already know the name of what you are looking for and where there have no other more logical organization. It is not so efficient otherwise. That's why, for instance, the File menu in computer programs doesn't place "Quit" between "Open" and "Save". And it's why in musical scores, bassoon is not placed above clarinet, etc. Once you get the gist of the logic of the ordering it becomes much simpler to guess the approximation of what you're looking for even if you don't remember the exact name (eg, whether it's listed as "Quit" vs "Exit", or "Cello" vs "Violoncello", or "Volta" vs "Endings", etc.
As for how your score got into the state it is currently in, unfortunately we don't have time machines to enable us to go back and look over your shoulder to see what happened. If you can remember and find steps to reproduce the problem, definitely let us know. Otherwise, best to simply fix it and move on.
In reply to Alphabetic order is… by Marc Sabatella
> Otherwise, it's best to just fix it and move on.
That's what I thought too.
In MuseScore you could easily take a flute line and call it Contra Bass Tuba. It would still sound like a flute. What's in a name?
Someone picked the Bb and Eb tuba in treble clef and actively changed the names. If they are wrong, change them back, save them as a 'custom template' and you're done.
In reply to > Otherwise, it's best to… by HildeK
1) No one uses this computer other than me
2) I have never (never) used the terms Bass Tuba and Contrabass Tuba
3) No template exists on this computer using the above terms, until the one we are discussing materialized.
I would have thought MuseScore developers would be as concerned as I am about this mystery and, before anyone asks, I can't recount steps leading up to this problem since, from my point of view, there weren't any.
>What's in a name?
If a conductor is looking for the tuba part, he will not search for a flute part in disguise.
In reply to 1) No one uses this computer… by johnmorton193
No, of course not!
I just wanted to say that you can change any name, for example a tuba to a contrabass tuba, even if the name does not exist in the instrument list.
And I have big doubts that the software did it by itself. At least in MuS 3.6.2 there is no Contrabass Tuba, only a Sub-Contrabass Tuba. Even if the software points to a wrong instrument due to an error, it should have been one that is present in the list and not change the name as well. And then it happened additionally with the bass tuba?
That would be several software errors occurring at the same time and that is extremely unlikely!
But you've fixed and we can close the discussion...
In reply to No, of course not! I just… by HildeK
Please see below.
In reply to 1) No one uses this computer… by johnmorton193
MuseScore developers are always very concerned about problems where some series of steps leads to a different result than the one intended. But it’s crucially important to realize things don’t happen on their own. If you take no action on a file, then that file does not change. That’s a basic fact of how computers work.
We all recognize that whatever steps led to this were steps you didn’t intend to lead to this, and it may well be true that those steps shouldn’t have led to this. But in order for anyone to investigate why those steps nevertheless did lead to this, we need to know the steps.
Again, we also also recognize you don’t remember what the steps were that inadvertently led to this. That’s fine. Since it has literally never even been reported before in millions of scores, it’s probably a very rare series of steps. So chances are it won’t ever happen again. But if it does - or if you remember the original steps and can confirm by repeating them that it leads to the same problem starting from another score - then of course we want to know.
Until then, once again, best to simply move is no need to continue this discussion further as there is nothing anyone can do without the steps.
In reply to MuseScore developers are… by Marc Sabatella
Things don't happen on their own but we have a situation where the source of the phantom file has still not been identified and that ought to be of concern to the developers too. I would suggest that you find the template that uses the terms Bass Tuba and Contrabass Tube as a starting point. I looked briefly and haven't found one.
In reply to Things don't happen on their… by johnmorton193
Since out of millions of users, the problem has only occurred on your system, only you could possibly figure out what happened. My guess is, you downloaded a score or template created by someone else and accidentally used that. If you are concerned, then by all means, feel free to look harder and let us know if//when you find something. Or, again just move on - by which means, no need to continue this discussion further.
I think I have provided all the assistance I can here, so I'm moving on as well. But if you do figure something out and it turns out to be something other than something silly like you having accidentally used a template you downloaded from someone else, feel free to start a new discussion in which you post the steps to reproduce the problem.
In reply to Since out of millions of… by Marc Sabatella
> My guess is, you downloaded a score or template created by someone else
Another reason I could imagine:
He shared the file e.g. via dropbox with a friend. Both have the synchronisation of local and remote files activated. Now the friend modifiies the template and automatically it will be updated also on his computer. This happend to me some time ago.
Maybe checking some file properties (creation and modification date) will give a hint.
In reply to > My guess is, you… by HildeK
I do not collaborate with others so the synch possibility doesn't offer a way out of this maze.
In reply to Since out of millions of… by Marc Sabatella
I did not download a template. I used my own, with 'Eb Tuba' and 'BbTuba' marked. My hunch, which is all I have, is that the errant file came from within MuseScore or its library of files, somehow. Much as I understand the need to close off this discussion, I still believe it is in all our interests to find the answer, for the benefit of those who follow, which no one has succeeded in doing, so far.
In reply to I did not download a… by johnmorton193
Yes, it would be interesting to know what happened.
I have MuS2 and MuS3 installed on my Win7 PC (MuS 4 is not usable). When I go to
C:\Program Files (x86)\MuseScore 2\templates\07-Band_and_Percussion
or to
C:\Program Files\MuseScore 3\templates\07-Band_and_Percussion
and open the file "03-Brass_Band.mscx" there, I can only find an E♭ Bass and a B♭ Bass staff. In those places are other template files that all have the same creation resp. modification date.
These are files that came to my PC when I installed MuseScore, and their file and folder dates match the installation date.
Try opening one of these files of the specified folders and compare.
These files are either in the installation path or, if they have ever been changed, in the custom template path.
That's why I gave the tip above to check the date of your template file. If it doesn't match the one in the installation path, you changed it if you are the only person who has access to your computer.
And no one else will have the same problem.
In reply to Yes, it would be interesting… by HildeK
Thanks.
I can't get anyone to understand that the errant file has nothing to do with my actions. As I said, I am the only user of this computer, I do not share files with anyone, and I do not import templates from anywhere or anyone. I have never referred to 'Contrabass' and 'Bass' Tubas, ever.
I am unsure if the fact that you use such early equipment and software might make comparisons with my iMac filing difficult.
Marc said that not one of the millions of users has had this problem. It might be fruitful to put the word out because that is a claim no one can make at present.
In reply to Thanks. I can't get anyone… by johnmorton193
Sorry, you had mentioned that you were using an iMAC, I had forgotten that. Then, of course, my path information is useless.
Nevertheless, the Musescore program must be saved somewhere, and in a folder in the same path are also the built-in template files. I don't know iOS, so I don't know if and how you may access it on iOS. And I am still very interested in the file dates of the erroneous template file and that of the MuseScore installation.
It may well happen on storage media that a bit changes. But that certainly does not turn a "Bass" into a "Contrabass"! Best case: it makes the "Bass" to "Bcss" or "Bess" for example but never ever to a "Contrabass"! It's much more likely that you'll start a trip to Mars tomorrow :-)!
In the vast majority of such storage errors there are then errors that prevent the file from being useable.
I have been working with PCs for more than 35 years, and such changes cannot happen without the user's intervention.
> I can't get anyone to understand that the errant file has nothing to do with my actions.
Surely not. Someone would have to program a virus just for you, just to annoy you. How likely is that?
In reply to Sorry, you had mentioned… by HildeK
As per https://musescore.org/en/handbook/3/create-new-score#system-templates-f…
MacOS: Under /Applications/MuseScore 3.app/Contents/Resources/templates.
and https://musescore.org/en/handbook/3/create-new-score#user-templates-fol…
MacOS and Linux: ~/Documents/MuseScore3/Templates.
In reply to As per https://musescore.org… by Jojo-Schmitz
Yes, thanks. I'm used to this procedure.
Simply because I dislike 'loose ends' here is a summary of the present matter:
A template appeared on my desktop that I did not recognize featuring instrument names that I never use.
I never share files with anyone nor do I import files.
I am the sole user of this computer.
Let it be noted that the origin of this file remains a mystery.
The file must exist somewhere and I am making the assumption that it exists within MuseScore, but that still leaves the problem of how it got to me.
We have taken this matter as far as we can, to date, so no response is expected.
In reply to Yes, thanks. I'm used to… by johnmorton193
Just as you thought it was safe to come out, another similar(?) problem has just cropped up in the last few minutes.
The attached screenshot shows a Bb trumpet part identified by MuseScore as being in F. You will see from the snapshot of the score that it is correctly defined. The first three of the extracted trumpet parts are the same.
The part properties indicate a major second transposition which is correct for the Bb trumpet.
I suggest you add this to the list of considerations when you investigate the present problem since I can offer no additional info that might help.
In reply to Thanks. I can't get anyone… by johnmorton193
FWIW, it does not explain why you are seeing the Bass Tuba and Contrabass Tuba in the score/template, but in MS3 the name for Bb Tuba (Treble Clef) exists, while this has been renamed to Contrabass Tuba (treble clef) in Bb in MS4. And also the Eb Tuba (Treble Clef) which is now named Bass Tuba (treble clef) in Eb.
Perhaps somewhere in the process a part/instrument has been reset to it's default.
For the record, I was also very confused about these name changes but in the end it did not make much difference for me as I am using my own Brass Band template when creating scores and that contains the desired names already. Even noticed the Brass Band template (provided with MS4) contains nicer names (better suitable for brass band). Contrabass Tuba seems to be the common term used in wind band orchestra's and that is why it was changed.
In reply to FWIW, it does not explain… by Henk De Groot
This was part of a series of disruptive actions that were occurring, and still are. As you infer, the name problem in itself is easily rectified, I was just concerned about the number of unexpected incidents that were occurring over which I had no warning and little control. I can't work that way. "Will my score be finished on Wednesday?" you ask. "Well, it will be, MS permitting" is my reply.
For example, I just recently opened an MS3 score in MS4 and the hairpins had disappeared. It took me an hour to find a workaround. I notice a comment by one of the developers saying that he didn't know why this is happening.
MuseScore is an open-source endeavour contributed to by many enthusiasts giving their time and knowledge free, but MS is presented to the world as a 'program' so we are justified in accepting it in good faith. Everything worked wonderfully, until MS4 came along and caused one of the most disruptive, stressful, frustrating and expensive periods in my musical life. Even changing the part name is a nightmare. Follow the instructions word-for-word, try to put it into practice, and you'll see what I mean. I succeeded but each time I didn't know exactly how.
In reply to Since out of millions of… by Marc Sabatella
>Since out of millions of users, the problem has only occurred on your system
Surely you can't make this claim.
In reply to Alphabetic order is… by Marc Sabatella
As I have already said, I did fix it and 'move on'. This was commissioned by a championship brass band so I had no choice but to get the job done. The examples of illogical orderings you use as examples do not relate clearly to the menu items and you have failed to convince me that more could not be done in that respect.
In reply to As I have already said, I… by johnmorton193
What is "logical" is subjective. Yes, of course, the order could be changed to something that you personally find more logical, but then others would find it less so. There is no pleasing everyone unfortunately.
In reply to What is "logical" is… by Marc Sabatella
Logic is not subjective, that's the whole point. It offers a way out of preconceptions and prejudices.
In reply to Logic is not subjective,… by johnmorton193
Then logic is the wrong word here. Replace with intuition
In reply to I just checked my template… by John Morton
For issues with your account contact support@musescore.com
In reply to For issues with your account… by Jojo-Schmitz
Just tried that, with my new email address and the correct Facebook password and it won't let me in. If I log in via Facebook I see my old address under 'account'. Facebook has my new email.
In reply to Just tried that, with my new… by John Morton
Here in musescore.org, In upper right click your name and choose "settings". You are redirected to musescore.com) and there under "account" you should be able to edit your email adress and save it with the save button.
In reply to I just checked my template… by John Morton
Regarding e-mail address:
Do you mean the one here on musescore.org that our responses were sent to? See your profile in the upper right corner of this page.
And why are you letting your old address die? Do you let it live after all or do you have to pay for it?
In reply to Regarding e-mail address: Do… by HildeK
I have changed service provider but the emails will keep coming in for 90 days after the change.
In reply to Without knowing what you did… by Marc Sabatella
A bolt-on to this discussion. I have just opened yet another file created in MS 3 and the first three trumpet parts have identical content. I will have to modify them by hand. Interestingly, yet again the fourth part is correct, as was the fourth cornet part in the brass band score. There is no point in uploading a score since the problem is clearly not related to individual scores but is a general malfunction involving backward compatibility.
No need to respond, I expect you will all look into this.
In reply to A bolt-on to this discussion… by johnmorton193
As explained several times, there is absoutely a need to upload the original score here so we can begin to investigate, because of the millions of scores that have been imported from MU3 into MU4, you are so far the only one who has encountered a problem. So you are the only one able to help us look into this, by attaching one of your MU3 scores that demonstrates the problem, so we can understand what is unique about it. Please, if you care about this enough to post, do yourself and other users the service of posting the original file (before you save it - the original MU3 file). Then we can finally get started.
As mentioned, your cornets are actually set not to transpose - you must have added them as something other than Bb cornets. Changing them to Bb cornets would work, or just fix the transposition in staff/part properties.
As for the parts, looks like you've altered your cornet parts to all be duplicates of each other. Not sure how/why, but you are probably right about it relating to your attempts to fix the wrong instrument problem. If you can ever remember the steps to follow, let us know so we can see if it's a big or just the expected result of whatever you actually did.
Anyhow, to fix this, go to the Parts windows to rename the spurious soprano parts, and then go to the Instruments panel to fix which instruments appear in which part.
In reply to As mentioned, your cornets… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks, but see above.