Complicated Voltas

• Mar 22, 2024 - 13:32

First, a general statement: When I use 1st and 2nd endings, the voltas work just fine. The playback does what I hope it will do, and there aren't any surprises. But as soon as I start modifying the voltas and adding 3rd or 4th endings, or sections that are played multiple times, things become much less reliable.

I've attached a specific file that I'm having trouble with. All is working until p. 3, where the voltas become more complicated. What I want to happen is for the repeat sign at the end of bar 33 to go back to 22 twice, then proceed to bar 34 the second time. As it stands, I can't get it to work, and I can't get the music from 34 on to play no matter what I do. Any suggestions on how to make this work?

I'm using MuseScore 4.2.1 on a Mac running Sonoma 14.3.1.

Attachment Size
Volta Issue.mscz 49.24 KB

Comments

• Mar 23, 2024 - 18:43

Sorry, but your first sentence is incorrect. The repeat is played twice, just as the music in the volta marked "1,2" is played twice. The third time, the "1,2" volta is jumped over, hence the "3,4" volta. If there is logic in giving a bar that is played twice to a play count of 3, I'd love to hear it. And to be clear, I'm not upset, tut I don't understand this at all, no matter how I try to get my mind around it. As much as MuseScore tries to have a good "out of the box" experience, the hoops that have to be jumped through to make voltas work the way they should is unfortunate, to put it mildly.

I've attached a newer revision of the same file, with another volta issue. Try as I may, I can't get the music at bar 39 to play. I've fiddled around with the play count, but to no avail. I really think this should be simpler and more intuitive than it is. Once again, if there is a logic to how the current method works, I'd love to hear it.

Attachment Size
Volta Issue 2.mscz 77.52 KB

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• Mar 23, 2024 - 21:05

The voltas don't change how often a repeat is play, just when and how often a certain ending (AKA volta) is played

The the repeat in measure 39 isn't working as there's no corresponding start repeat. any they always come in pairs, start repeat and end repeat (where the start repeat is impictily the 1st measure and the end repeat is implicitly the last measure, so you can drop those), repeat barlines don't nest.

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• Mar 24, 2024 - 22:27

That's because the piece isn't finished yet.

Be advised that voltas, repeats, jumps, etc, wherever used, may be interconnected so that playback could behave badly if, for instance, an end repeat barline is missing its other (paired) start repeat barline; or a D.S. has no complementary S; or a To Coda intends to go somewhere in the score not yet notated.
So... be careful if you expect final playback behavior on an unfinished score, especially one with "complicated" anything.

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• Mar 24, 2024 - 16:39

@chrismassa1... Earlier you wrote:
Can you help me understand the logic of this? When the bar is only played twice, I don't understand why the play count would be set to 3. I'm genuinely curious.

First off...
Every measure necessarily gets played at least one time (else why bother notating it?); and in a simple repeat, with an end repeat barline (no volta), the 'Play count' is (automatically) set in 'Measure properties' to the number 2. (BTW: 'Play count' cannot be set to zero.)

Now, consider this example with voltas:
Volta playback.png

The volta labelled 1. 2. 4. has the 'Measure properties' play count set to 4, meaning that after its first play, it can send the playback engine back to the beginning three times. (1+3 = 4)
The volta labelled 3. has the 'Measure properties' play count set to 2, so after its first play, it can send the playback engine back to the beginning only one time. (1+1 = 2)
The volta labelled 5. has no repeat barline, and no play count is needed because as mentioned already, every measure gets played at least one time.

So... upon playback, MuseScore begins to play the first time, reaches the 1. 2. 4. volta and uses up one of its three available "sendback" commands. Two "sendback" (SB) commands then remain as the playback engine begins the second play. It reaches the 1. 2. 4. volta again and uses up another SB command (so now one SB command remains) as the playback engine commences the third play.
On the third play, it "sees" and skips to the 3. volta, plays it (using up the single SB command available) as it returns to the beginning for the fourth time.
This fourth time, the playback engine "sees" the 4. of the 1. 2. 4. volta and honors its last remaining SB command by playing the beginning for the fifth time and finishing at the 5. volta.

N.B.: The 'Repeat list" specifies the playing order of the alternate endings (Voltas). It is found in the Properties panel under 'Volta'. Use the 'Style' tab.
The "Text" tab is where the numbers (e.g., 1. 2. 4.) that appear in the score under the volta line are entered.

Attachment Size
Volta.mscz 14.85 KB

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• Mar 24, 2024 - 17:43

You have explained very well why this is the case.
The question comes up again and again and I didn't understand it at first either.

However, it didn't necessarily have to be implemented this way. The software could also add this '+1' in a hidden way. However, if this were to be changed now, there would probably be problems with compatibility with old files. That's why it will have to stay that way.
In addition, you can also enter a higher number without there being an error. This is also difficult to explain.

I have to admit that I can't see why the repeat list wouldn't have been enough. Actually, only if you use more than a single repeat without volta will you need the play count.

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• Mar 24, 2024 - 21:54

In addition, you can also enter a higher number without there being an error.
Do you mean enter a higher number in Measure Properties > Play count?

Anyhow, Musescore contributor @jeetee is the Zen Master of all this jumps, markers, voltas, and repeats stuff. Also, somewhere there's a MuseScore (GitHub maybe?) webpage with the examples used for testing purposes. It applies all sorts of combinations. I can't recall the URL (address), but it offers some gnarly scenarios.

Actually, only if you use more than a single repeat without volta will you need the play count.

In addition to more than a single repeat (without volta) the play count helps when, for instance, a D.C. al Fine is tasked with 'Play repeats', in which case the play count is started all over.

However, it didn't necessarily have to be implemented this way.

Yes, but someone had to make a choice (back whenever it was made).
A consistent approach avoids uncertainty. If someone said: "You have to play this twice":
Twice.png
What's the total number of C's you will have played when you are done?

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• Mar 25, 2024 - 00:25

> Do you mean enter a higher number in Measure Properties > Play count?
Yes. Enter in your example in both measures e.g. the value 10. It works.

> Yes, but someone had to make a choice
Yes, of course. It was just a comment on these frequent misunderstandings.

> How many C's will you have played in total when you're done?
Yes, I play the measures twice, so 12 C's, but I repeat once! The problem of some people is that it is the play count and not the repeat count. With voltas, the measure having the property 'play count = 2' is played only once! This is the misunderstanding ...

But it is what it is, and you have to learn it and to deal with it. Maybe there are other reasons for implementing it this way that I don't recognize.
I don't want to criticize, I'm just trying to explain why there are always misunderstandings here.

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• Mar 25, 2024 - 02:59

You wrote:
Yes. Enter in your example in both measures e.g. the value 10. It works.

Entering a (greater) value of 10 works because it provides the voltas with a stockpile of excess "sendback" (SB) commands (most of which are never called for and remain unused). It is excessive, but could unintentionally come in handy.
For example, as the OP states: ... the piece isn't finished yet. I plan to have it played four times, and if that changes, I'll edit the text accordingly.
So, if the OP decides on adding more plays and edits the text (and also the Repeat list) accordingly, but forgets about setting the Play count in measure properties - which on occasion has happened to others in the forum - the score will still play OK. It will use what is necessary from that stockpile of extra SB commands.

On the other hand...
Placing a lesser Play count value than required is what causes problems, so try this for fun:
Leave the value set at 10 for the 1. 2. 4. volta and change the value for the 3. volta to 1 - thereby taking away that volta's only available SB command. When played, the playback engine doesn't get sent back to the beginning from the 3. volta, and sadly limps through to the end. :-(
--OR--
Leave the value set at 10 for the 3. volta and change the Play count value of the 1. 2. 4. volta to 3. This time the playback engine is sent back enough times to get to the 3. volta which uses one of its (many) SB commands to start the fourth play -- but the 1. 2. 4. volta is out of SB commands and the score limps to the end. :-(
Sadly, all those extra SB commands stockpiled in the 3. volta are of no use because that volta has earlier thrown playback to the start and, of course, cannot do it again..

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• Mar 25, 2024 - 08:48

Yes, that's exactly how it works.

My consideration was:
A section with repeats without voltas needs a value for the play count in the measure properties. For example, if you have four verses, the value must be 4. This is quite understandable here, because the measure with the end repeat barline is also played four times.

The situation is different when using voltas. I think, here you could do it without the play count and derive everything from the repeat lists of the voltas. The confusion arises from the fact that the measure with the value for the play count (measure with end repeat barline) is always played less often than the value indicates.

As I said, a different decision was made, probably for good reasons that I can't see at the moment, and we can live with it if we understand the context. And we just have to explain it to people seeking help from time to time. :-)
I also had the same problem with my first uses of MuseScore.

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• Mar 25, 2024 - 09:19

The voltas and their repeat lists should take precedence over a play count. Should be possible to code without any backwards compatibility issues (other than that scores all of a sudden play back correctly, as per their voltas)

But I'd rather let Zen master @jeetee comment on this ;-)

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• Mar 25, 2024 - 19:38

> With voltas, the measure having the property 'play count = 2' is played only once!

> The confusion arises from the fact that the measure with the value for the play count (measure with end repeat barline) is always played less often than the value indicates.

Perhaps, for voltas, "play count" is a misnomer and should be named something like "repeat count" along with not having to add 1 for voltas. So, 3 items in the repeat list, 3 "repeat counts".

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• Mar 25, 2024 - 10:36

Thank you all for your helpful (and insightful) comments. For the record, I've been using MuseScore for years, but I usually don't work with voltas very much, which is probably why I haven't run into this issue very often.

That said, all of the comments have made me want to reiterate a sentiment I expressed earlier: If MuseScore aims to be user-friendly and have a good "out-of-the-box" experience, the method for making voltas work the way they should is a glaring problem that deserves to be remedied. Yes, it (kind of) makes sense, and yes, I can (sort of) understand the logic behind it, but if a seasoned user needs to wade through comments like these to understand why voltas work the way they do, then something is amiss. I really believe that someone should be able to enter the voltas they want and, assuming they make good notational sense (which, I will admit, some of mine did not), the playback should work without having to calculate the play count. Yes, a change like this may create some playback errors with earlier files, but so did the upgrade to MuseScore 4.

Again, I am grateful for the comments. I asked to help understand why voltas work the way, and you've done that. But I'm even more convinced that the current system is too confusing, too unintuitive, to stay the way it is.

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• Mar 25, 2024 - 19:22

Earlier you wrote:
> When I use 1st and 2nd endings, the voltas work just fine. The playback does what I hope it will do, and there aren't any surprises.
So, a good "out-of-the-box" experience, then?

> But as soon as I start modifying the voltas and adding 3rd or 4th endings, or sections that are played multiple times, things become much less reliable.
Okay, so your topic title is "Complicated Voltas", and MuseScore does have a handbook which provides instruction. (You can edit it.)

> Can you help me understand the logic of this?... I'm genuinely curious.
...which then prompted a lengthy discussion.

> I asked to help understand why voltas work the way, and you've done that.
Then my job here is done... ;-)

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• Jan 30, 2025 - 15:25

I have used Voltas and have usually figured out the workings. I have one question.
I have three verses the first two verses are repeated (Volta 1). After the second verse (Volta 2) the verse continues several measures until a (D.S al Coda) and starts at the (Segno) for the third verse. ( now the measure repeat count is 2) On the third pass I have a (To Coda) to go to the last measure to play Coda. Every thing works until the (To Coda) is reached and then goes to Volta 2. Is this a play count problem from the first repeat measure?
I have tried the repeat count of 3 and measure after the (Volta 2) plays once more to the end.
It would be nice to be able to display a map of the path of the piece.

The timeline show the Jumps and Markers but not the number progression. So why on the third pass for the third verse the (To Coda) does not work.

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• Jan 31, 2025 - 00:50

The "To Coda" marker needs a corresponding "Coda" symbol.
Also, be certain the "D.S. al Coda" has the jump parameters of 'Play until" and of "Continue at" correctly specified in the Properties panel.

Otherwise, please attach the score - explaining exactly how you would like it to play.

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• Jan 31, 2025 - 14:40

Here is an example. I parred down my score to test various settings. This example is what I am experiencing on play back.

Verse one then repeat
Verse two continue to volta2 and then the next phrase until you reach the D.S.al Coda jump back to the Segno
play the third verse then To Coda to the last measure to end.

I have decided to move the third verse to the end of the last phrase to play to the end. No going back.
Upon the change the playing was still doing weird repeats.
I looked at the timeline and there were still Jumps and markers on the timeline.
I was able to delete the jumps and markers and everything started playing as expected.

I bet the jumps and markers on the timeline were the source of my original problem.

Attachment Size
Test repeats and volitas.mscz 35.21 KB

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• Jan 31, 2025 - 17:35

Looking at your attached score...
Why all the 'To Coda' markers in measure 4?
In measure 12, why did you delete the text only (and not the jump itself) for several 'D.S. al Fine', 'D.S.' and D.S. al Coda' jumps? They are active for the playback, but not visible in the score because merely the text field itself was edited (deleted) to be empty.

I got rid of all that junk. Here's the score:
2- Test repeats and volitas.mscz

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• Jan 31, 2025 - 20:39

I sent you messed up file. I way going nuts and did not notice the dups. Any how! I played your test and it did what it was supposed to do. I tried mine again clearing the time line and out put the Jumps and Marks back in. It still not work. Did you work with the file I sent you or cloned the file. I think that my file is corrupted.

Thanks for your help!

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• Feb 1, 2025 - 01:03

You wrote:
> I sent you messed up file. <

Yes, messed up files are what we at the Support and bug reports forum want. Perfectly functioning files do not reveal any problems. Your messed up file - "Test repeats and volitas.mscz" - is what I fixed and renamed to "2- Test repeats and volitas.mscz" to avoid confusion (if further discussion occurs).

You wrote:
> I played your test and it did what it was supposed to do. <

Yes, we here at this forum offer fixes/solutions. That file is your file after fixing.

You wrote:
> Did you work with the file I sent you or cloned the file. <

I worked with the file you sent - "Test repeats and volitas.mscz" - in order to find out what was wrong with it. Cloning the file - whatever that means - would likely exhibit the same bad behavior and still require a fix.

You wrote:
> I think that my file is corrupted. <

Okay, so please attach that corrupted file. Give it a slightly different name if it has the same name as any of the other score attachments in this thread. This way any further discussion and reference to it won't cause confusion with any of the other files posted here.

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• Feb 1, 2025 - 17:24

I've got it!

You have to select the "D.S. al Coda", then "all similar elements in the same staff" and delete! And then set a new "D.S. al Coda" again.

In the MSCX there were several apparently invisible D.S. jumps (al Fine, al Coda and others), which disappeared with the deletion action.

Edit:
Jm6stringer • Jan 31, 2025 - 17:35 has the same idea - yesterday! Sorry.

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• Feb 2, 2025 - 08:47

MSCX is not compressed at all
Hmm, misunderstanding it seems.
MSCZ indeed is more than just a compressed MSCX. And in Mu4 those other files are actually needed, hence the MSCX folder. In Mu3 not, there MSCX is the complete score, unless the score contains images.

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