Can clef in part be unlinked from score?
For a score in concert pitch, I want the French horn mostly in bass clef even though the part is in treble clef. Is it possible in 2.0?
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Pretty much. If you change the initial clef to bass clef while in concert pitch mode, it remains treble while in transposed mode. Depending on the exact results you want, you may need to do this separately for the score and part, and you might also need to hide clef changes in the part if you wish to have them in the score.
If you have difficultly, feel free to attach your score and describe what you are trying to do, and we can walk you through what is possible.
In reply to Pretty much. If you change… by Marc Sabatella
We_Gather_Together B4.mscz
In reply to [inline:We_Gather_Together… by jwpratt
For the French horn, you will need to use the bass 8va clef (the one with an 8 above it). You can switch back and forth between the two clefs as you like. Here is what I came up with. Probably not the exact way to do it, I just avoided ledger lines where possible.
In reply to For the French horn, you… by mike320
Thanks. I believe your version does not have different clefs in score and part, which is what I wanted and have now been able to do, though whether I could do it again is in question. "Finicky" indeed!
The choice of clefs is an independent question. Both Adler's orchestration book (old edn) and Read's notation book treat treble clef as normal for horns, with bass clef only for very low notes. Read clearly bans 8va in parts even if needed in score, and I should think that would apply to 8va clefs as well, since they are equivalent. Thanks again.
In reply to Thanks. I believe your… by jwpratt
The 8va octave is necessary for proper playback, not for proper notation. You will decide which is more important.
I added the clefs directly to the part since it was easier for me to see where I thought they made the most sense. That prevented me from needing to concern myself with transposed or not. The part defaults to transposed.
In reply to The 8va octave is necessary… by mike320
I want a score and parts to print, the parts for the instrumentalists to play and the score for me (amateur pianist) to look at. Everything I did played back correctly, and I would think anything correct would play back correctly, so no compromise is needed for playback.
In reply to I want a score and parts to… by jwpratt
I don't play the french horn so I rely on information I find about notating music on line. Most of what I write for horns is transcriptions of Classical music. Historically horn music in the bass clef was written an octave lower than it sounds. This is what I see in classical scores from before the middle of the 20th century. I looked for documentation indicating this is normal notation. What I found was that modern horn music is actually written in the bass clef in the octave it is played but historically it was written an octave lower. Horn players you show this to should have no difficulty in playing it. I apologize for any confusion.
In reply to [inline:We_Gather_Together… by jwpratt
As mentioned, you can set the clef independently for concert pitch and transposed modes. You just need to do this separate for score and part, and it's a bit finicky. The thing to do is first put the score and part in sync - temporarily put the part into concert pitch mode too. Then change the clef, then turn concert pitch back off. Things will now be as you like.
In reply to As mentioned, you can set… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks. Earlier replies to you and Mike 320 aren't showing, so I take it they never went and this won't either. I get a message saying website temporarily unavailable.
In reply to As mentioned, you can set… by Marc Sabatella
Here's what I wrote, but I think it is now superseded. Apparently I can send but not preview first. I second "finicky".
Thanks. Here's the score. I want the separate horn part to be transposed, in treble clef. I want the horn part in the score to be at concert pitch and to start in bass clef but switch to treble clef at M48. I entered everything initially in the score at concert pitch, if that matters. (In fact, I started with an arrangement having one more instrument, which I eliminated.) When I change the initial clef in the horn part in the score in concert pitch to bass clef, it goes to bass clef in the transposed separate part as well and the notes are renotated accordingly. I think changing the clef back in the part (at written pitch) solves the problem, though it is not intuitive to me why this clef change in the score propagates to the part but not vice versa (and it is not what I expected from your book, nor what happened with another experiment I did). A very particular sequence of steps seems to be required. I presume one must export parts in a particular way also.
In reply to Here's what I wrote, but I… by jwpratt
What happens when you add/remove/change almost any element is that it affects both score and part - that's the whole intent of linked parts. But clefs do get one special tweak, which is that any change only applies to the current transposition mode. So if you add a bass clef while in concert pitch mode, it only applies to concert pitch mode. However, it also only applies the current mode in the part - again, because everything is linked - so if your part is in transposed mode, the bass clef now applies there which you don't want. That's why it is important that your score and part be in sync before doing this - because the change always affects the current mode.
Probably this behavior should be further tweaked so that when propagating a change to the part, we don't apply to the current mode for the part but instead to the current mode for the score (or vice versa if you are adding to the part). Feel free to suggest that enhancement in the issue tracker. But hopefully you now understand what is going on and how to get the desired effect?
In reply to What happens when you add… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks again. I did get the effect I desired. I also think I understand, or could understand, how it works, with the help of your explanation, but as long as everything is possible, I would want to think carefully before suggesting a change. For example, for string quartet, I might want the score to be in bass and treble clef throughout (no sermons from string players, please!) even though the parts use viola and tenor clefs, but they (the parts) are not transposed so it would seem artificial to create a separate, transposed mode.
In reply to Thanks again. I did get the… by jwpratt
I would agree it seems a little artificial. On the other hand, if this is the only other use case worth worrying about, the current method does work. After all, if there were transposing instruments in the ensemble, you'd probably be wanting to see them in concert pitch for any situation where you also want to see viola in treble clef - the idea being, the score in such cases is for a conductor to read and understand, not just to physically reflect the parts. But sure, eventually I do hope we support more ways of unliking particular elements, as clefs aren't the only cases where this can sometimes be desirable.