Dynamic tool misbehaving
I am composing a piece in Muse (from scratch, not brought over from another form/format) and part of it has quit obeying the dynamic markings and will increase/decrease volume arbitrarily. I have tried putting "pianissimo" markings under four notes in a row: Keeps on playing "forte" or whatever volume it has chosen. Ignores dynamics and hairpin markings. If I Save the piece and put it away, get it out in a day or two, the problem is still there. My computer is Windows 7 and the Muse program is 2.0.3, as per your request for systems info.
When I tried inserting some blank measures to create a buffer, that did not work. The afflicted area has grown and now spans about 2 pages of a 3 page piece. It started with about 6 measures giving trouble.
I have tried Copy and Paste onto a New page, but the problem came along with the paste. Then I copied a few test measures onto a New page, note by note. The new one is fine.
I also checked via the route that did work on a previous question regarding ones that I had brought over as Midis: Hit Ctrl A to select all notes (that did not work, I had to cut it down to one section of defective measures, would not investigate the whole piece), Hit F8, Notes, and checked to see if it had it set at "Offset" and "0". It did. I changed them to "User" and "1", got out of that window, went back in and reset them to "Offset" and "0" and that made no difference.
I also cut out the "Pedal" markings in bad sectors, but that changed nothing. (Didn't expect it to, I was just really stretching for any culprit I could find.)
Any way to persuade it to follow my directions?
Comments
We would need to see the score. There are other possibilities.
In reply to We would need to see the… by mike320
Ok, I have copied out a section that is having problems and will see if I can send it.
Beth NOT FOUND: test_for_dynamics.mscz
In reply to Ok, I have copied out a… by Beths
It says it is not found, but it lists an attachment. Your response will let me know if it came through.
Beth
In reply to It says it is not found,… by Beths
oops, accidentally hit "Reply" and now the page won't let go of this unless I put something in this field
In reply to It says it is not found,… by Beths
"and part of it has quit obeying the dynamic markings and will increase/decrease volume arbitrarily. I have tried putting "pianissimo" markings under four notes in a row: Keeps on playing "forte" or whatever volume it has chosen. Ignores dynamics and hairpin markings."
A piano score, by default, has the dynamics assigned to both the treble and the bass clef. If you put a p in the treble plus a hairpin, then a mf, then, by default , the bass part will also plays the same dynamics.
But if you put: a crescendo hairpin in the treble, and at the same measures, a diminuendo hairpin in the same measures in the bass part, musescore will play that entire measure at "p". And that's the reason you notice the "leap" to mf in the next measure - because of the "conflicting" hairpins.
Just try removing the hairpins in the measure (both treble and bass), and only putting again the treble, crescendo hairpin, from p to mf. There will be no leap in this case.
There are solutions to make a piano treble & bass staves play differently regarding dynamics, please, search in here the forum for them
In reply to "and part of it has quit… by mdi1972
To expound a bit on what mdi1972 said. You can assign dynamics and hairpins to individual staves rather than the part (the entire piano) to avoid MuseScore picking and choosing its dynamics. To do this, select the dynamic (or even several at once) and change it in the inspector (press F8 if it's not visible).
In reply to To expound a bit on what… by mike320
Thanks, that helped a lot but there is still trouble where there are no hairpins. Still working on this. Beth
In reply to Thanks, that helped a lot… by Beths
As always, posting the actual score you are having trouble with would allow us to help you better. I already explained some of the problems in the short sample you posted. If you follow the instructions I have you there in terms of moving the dynamics to the correct staves, setting the ranges of both the dynamics and hairpins to Staff instead of Part, etc, it should work, but it would probably be more interesting for you to get help with your actual score and not that little test.
In reply to "and part of it has quit… by mdi1972
I also have the dynamic conflict where there are no hairpins and, in these cases, it seems that the bass' dynamics rule. Where, in three consecutive measures I put "mp", "p" and "ppp" in the bass and the treble was one dynamic marking louder (mf, mp, then pp), the bass dynamic apparently triumphed over that of the treble. One person suggested going into F8 to choose the dynamic marking but the only thing I could see to change there was to click on that little double arrow thingie and that didn't seem to have an appreciable effect. I tried that in the treble alone, then the treble and the bass (it set the velocities to zero), but there was no effect in the volume. I there something else I can do there? Beth
In reply to I also have the dynamic… by Beths
First be sure the dynamic is actually attached to the staff you want it to affect. Then click the dynamic marking. Then look in the Inspector for the field labeled "Dynamic range", which is a drop-down list. Change it from Part (the default) to Staff. You don't need to change the velocity unless you want to lie about it - mark it pp but have it play loud, for example. If I understand correctly, that isn't your goal - you just want dynamics to affect staves separately.
If you continue to have trouble, please make your best attempt then attach your score in its current state and explain which dynamic mark in particular is not doing what you want.
In reply to First be sure the dynamic is… by Marc Sabatella
I have now changed all dynamic marks and all hairpins to "Staff", which helped alot. I am not sure I know what you are saying about the dynamics being "actually attached to the staff you want it to affect", but I guessed and went around to every one of them, clicked on them, wiggled them a little until I could see the dotted line going up to the note where I wanted them to be and they are all connected to their proper notes. Hope that is what you meant. And yes, you are right, I just want the dynamics to affect the staves differently.
In reply to I have now changed all… by Beths
Wiggling with the mouse is indeed one way. Better to just attach them correctly in the first place - by selecting the proper note in the proper staff and double-clicking the dynamic, rather than just dragging it to the general vicinity. That will be a recipe for frustration if you are trying to be consistent, which you do need to be here.
In reply to I also have the dynamic… by Beths
BTW, the file you uploaded before definitely has problems because you have attached dynamic markings to different staves than the hairpins you intend them to be relevant to. That doesn't work. So the "p" in bar 2 of the bass clef staff does not affect the decrescendo a little later in the measure, which is why that part starts out as mf - the default dynamic for the treble staff. Even if the dynamic is set to affect the whole part, it still needs to be in the same staff as the hairpin it is designed to influence.
On top of that, you also have conflicting hairpins int he third measure - one is set to crescendo, the other to decrescendo, at the same time. That's impossible unless you intend the hairpins to only affect their particular staves, and for that, you need t use the Inspector as I mentioned above to change them from Part to Staff, plus have appropriate dynamics on each staff.
Basically, you need to keep straight which dynamics and which hairpins are attached to which staves, and you also need to be sure each is set appropriately to affect either the whole part or just the staff it is attached to. Normally, one would just attach everything to the top staff and be done with it and everything would just work. But if you want to play around with having the hands at different dynamic markings, then you need to take care to do so properly.
In reply to "and part of it has quit… by mdi1972
Thanks, I tried your suggestions about removing hairpins and it did tame things down a bit. Unfortunately for me, I want those hairpins in there, so I will have to hunt a bit more. Someone suggested trying things in F8 and I am doing that now. Beth
In reply to Thanks, I tried your… by Beths
You don't need to remove them. You simply need to do what I syuggested - if you want different dynamics for the different staves, then you have to be consistent in how you apply your dynamics and hairpins, and you need to use the Inspector as I directed above (the Inspector is the name of the window that appears when you press F8).
In reply to "and part of it has quit… by mdi1972
I did the removals, it did improve, but I want those markings in there. Ispil suggested going into F8 and marking things as "Staff", so I did that to all the Dynamics and hairpins and that cleared a lot of the trouble up, but not all of it. There are places where the music sails along through 3 or so dynamic marks with no change in volume.
In reply to I did the removals, it did… by Beths
Then most likely one of those dynamics is attached the wrong staff or has bad settings in the Inspector. Again, Again, if you attach your actual score, we can assist better and faster.
In reply to Then most likely one of… by Marc Sabatella
Ahhh, phooey, I think I will have to cave on that and send another slice of it. That will take a day or so. Thanks. Beth
In reply to Then most likely one of… by Marc Sabatella
You sent another missive which I cannot find on this page, so I will just answer it here. You said "Better to just attach them correctly in the first place - by selecting the proper note in the proper staff and double-clicking the dynamic, rather than just dragging it to the general vicinity. " That is exactly how I attach them (didn't even know they COULD be dragged into the score). I only move them if they come out on top of some other writing, like on top of a Pedal marking, hairpin, whatever. Then I drag them off that printing and make sure they are still aligned with the note I clicked to have them affect. I can't find the one you mentioned that is misaligned in the sample I sent. Maybe it got shaken loose from its proper note when it went through the email. (Joke) Maybe it is one I moved and my hand slipped as I let it go and it hopped to another note without my noticing it.
In reply to You sent another missive… by Beths
Dynamics are unique because they are the only thing that will change their anchors when they are dragged. You always need to move them using the inspector or if using the keyboard arrows for small moves and ctrl+arrows for larger moves. If you do this they will always remain attached to the note they were initially applied to.
In reply to Dynamics are unique because… by mike320
Yeah, dragging them seems to work, too. I do watch to make sure they are connected to the note I chose them for. However, in that sample I sent in, I have a crescendo in the treble and a decrescendo in the bass and neither does a thing even though both are in Staff. Do you know why that would be?
Beth
In reply to Yeah, dragging them seems to… by Beths
In your sample one is a crescendo the other is a decrescendo both set to part. If you were told to get louder and softer at the same time what would you do?
In reply to In your sample one is a… by mike320
That was from when I first sent in the sample. Since then, I have been told about Part vs. Staff and went through the whole piece, hairpin by hairpin (ditto for the dynamics) and changed them all to Staff. So these two hairpins in the same measure are both set to Staff in my present score. They are, I discovered after some experimentation, working a little bit: If I set their starting and ending volumes to maximum so that they span ppp to fff, I can tell that there is a bit of a volume change, but I would like it to be more noticeable, more subtle, than that.
In reply to That was from when I first… by Beths
I haven't seen another sample, so I was only commenting on what I have seen. I did make the adjustments myself to your sample.
I would suggest that your ears are playing tricks on you. One staff is getting louder while the other is getting softer. If you isolate a single staff you can hear a big difference in volume in each staff. It doesn't sound like a human would, but this is a computer doing calculations to imitate a human as best as possible. You can select a staff, click notes in the inspector and remove/add the check in the Play box to toggle whether the staff will play.
In reply to I haven't seen another… by mike320
I went to View, Mixer, where the mute selection is, but the piano is treated as only one thing, so how do I mute one voice separately?
In reply to I went to View, Mixer, where… by Beths
I thought I had explained, perhaps that was in a different thread.
To mute a single piano staff, select the notes you want to mute (select all of the measures then click the notes button in the inspector). In the inspector remove the check from the play box to mute those note. Put the check back to unmute them.
In reply to I thought I had explained,… by mike320
Yes, that was someone else.
In the meantime, I just copied and pasted the treble into some blank measures I created, then did the same to the bass so that I could listen to them individually. I can hear the hairpins working when I play each alone but it gets blurred out of existence when they play together. I think I will need to change the dynamics in the Muse score and make a note to change them back when I do a print score. That should be satisfactory. Thanks.
Beth
In reply to You sent another missive… by Beths
Good to know you're adding them well. Next thing to keep in mind is to not drag them afterwards either - if you need to move them, use the cursor keys and/or Inspector.
In the original sample, it wasn't that there was a dynamic on the wrong staff, it was that there was one completely missing - a dynamic for the top staff before the first hairpin. That plus all the dynamics and all hairpins being set to Part instead of Staff. Fix all of those problems - add a dynamic to the top staff on the first note, set all dynamics and all hairpins to Staff (right click one, Select / All Similar Elements, change to Staff in Inspector), and all should be well.
In reply to Good to know you're adding… by Marc Sabatella
They are all set to Staff, now. But am I understanding this correctly, that I can set all dynamics and all hairpins each as a group with that clicking on "All Similar Elements"? I didn't notice that choice; I'll look for it next time I go in there.
Another question--- I have been dragging hairpins and dynamic marks about freely. Does that interfere with performance, then? Should I go in and move each one about a bit so that I can place them by using the arrow keys? I feel a bit like I am dealing with some small, cranky animals who want everything JUST SO. (Joke)
In reply to They are all set to Staff,… by Beths
It would not hurt to drag them a little to see if they are attached where you want them. If they are attached to the wrong note, drag them toward the correct note until the line jumps there, then use the inspector or keyboard arrows to fine tune their position. The red line will lead to where each dynamic mark is attached. In the case of hairpins, simply double clicking it and selecting the left and right boxes (one at a time) will show where the anchors are. The notes between are the only ones affected by the hairpin. See https://musescore.org/en/handbook/hairpins#adjust-length if they are not attached where you want them.
In reply to It would not hurt to drag… by mike320
And what about Pedal? When I click on one that is printed in the score, it says that its right end is connected to the end of the measure. However, I have three chords in that measrue and want each to have its own Pedal. The program puts them in, but they are ALL connected to the right end of the measure. Will that make them all blur together into one Pedal? (It is kind of hard to hear that nuance.)
Beth
In reply to And what about Pedal? When… by Beths
To put a pedal, trill or some other lines that affect playback that affects only one note you need to click the starting point then ctrl+click (cmd+click on mac?) the end point, then double click the pedal. If the note is the last in the measure or you want the pedal to affect the rest of the measure then you can simply select than note and use any method you like to add the line. After I'm done entering this I will double check the instructions in the handbook to see that they explain this properly.
Edit: see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/lines#one-note
In reply to To put a pedal, trill or… by mike320
OK, did that and at first it did not work with the first listed Ped. mark but then I tried it with the second one, the one that has an asterisk/flower at the end of its line. That worked, thanks.
Beth
In reply to They are all set to Staff,… by Beths
Dragging doesn't affect performance of the program; it's just a less efficient and less accurate way of adjusting the position of practically anything compared to the keyboard or Inspector. And in the particular case of dynamics, it has the unfortunate side effect of possibly changing the attachment. So really, better to avoid doing that in the future. But if you've already dragged some, that isn't a problem in itself. It just means you've spent more time adjusting than you needed, and things probably aren't as neatly aligned as they would have been had you used the keyboard instead.
In reply to Good to know you're adding… by Marc Sabatella
OK, I put in a dynamic just before that hairpin but it had no effect. And the hairpins in the measure that has the couple 32nd notes (hairpin in both treble and bass, but they are crescendo and decrescendo) also do not work. And all dynamics and hairpins are set to Staff.
And I cannot find what you mentioned when you said "(right click one, Select / All Similar Elements, change to Staff in Inspector)". Where do I right click?
Beth
In reply to OK, I put in a dynamic just… by Beths
Right click on any element pops up a menu that has Select on it - that's what I am talking about. So, to select all dynamic markings at once, right click any dynamic marking, Select / All Similar Elements. Same for hairpins.
Regarding the score you posted earlier, when I followed the instructions I gave you, it worked. In particular, you need all dynamics and all hairpins set to staff, you need each hairpin to have a dynamic marking both before and after it, and on the same staff. So that means adding a dynamic to the top staff first measure as well as bottom staff fourth measure. Do that and I promise it works. I have attached the proof.
If that doesn't clear things up, then in order to understand what part of the process you may have gotten wrong, we would need you to upload your latest attempt.
As mentioned, your pedal marks are also applied incorrectly, looks like you attached them at to the full first measure rather than just the range of notes you wanted them to apply to. Better to attach them properly in the first place: select the range you want them to apply to, double click the marking in palette.
In reply to Right click on any element… by Marc Sabatella
Here is the fixed file.
In reply to Here is the fixed file. by Marc Sabatella
Got it, thanks. At first I did not know what you were meaning when you were saying that it had to have a beginning dynamic to decrescendo from... until I looked at the file you just sent and realized that the "mf" that I have in the score was two measures before the sample I sent. So, it is here, but was not there.
In reply to Right click on any element… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks for the info on the Select choice, that will save a lot of time in the future.
All dynamics and hairpins are set to staff in my score. I did them all by hand and then when you sent this info about the Select all Elements, I did them that way, too, to make sure not a one escaped the change.
No attachment came through so I am going to ask for clarification: Do you mean that, say, if I have an "mf" two measures ago and I now want it to crescendo to an "f" I need to put the "mf" in again, right before the crescendo mark, so that it is in the same measure? And if I want to say "crescendo to any increased loudness, take your pick", that cannot be done? That is, I must choose a specific volume and enter it right after the hairpin, again in the same measure?
Yes, I didn't know it was possible to connect an ending spot to the Ped. But now I have been told about selecting an end point for it so that I can put several in one measure.
In reply to Thanks for the info on the… by Beths
See above - the attachment is in a second response I sent moments after the first.
No, you don't need additional dybamics right before / after a hairpin. There just has to be something, somewhere. MuseScore will search backwards before a hairpin as far as it takes to figure out what the beginning dynamic should be, just as a human would. And it also looks as far forward after the hairpin as it takes to figure out what the ending dynamic should be.
If you want a hairpin without an ending dynamic, a human performer will guess at your intent and you'll get wildly different results from one performance to the next. MuseScore plays it safe and waits for you to tell it. So if you prefer to let human performances guess and therefore don't want to include a dynamic, you can still inform MuseScore of your intent by setting the the "Velocity change" for the hairpin explicitly in the Inspector. The default value is 0, which is what triggers the search backwards & forwards to find a dynamic in the same same way a human would. But a positive number 1-127 (the range of velocity in MIDI) will increase that amount, or a negative number -1 - -127 will decrease by that amount, with or without dynamics. You'll presumably still want a dynamic somewhere before the hairpin so both MuseScore and a human performer know what dynamic to start at, though.
In reply to See above - the attachment… by Marc Sabatella
No, no attachment came through on the second one, either.
And thanks for the hairpin plus dynamics details.
In reply to No, no attachment came… by Beths
I see the attachment here: https://musescore.org/en/node/271351#comment-831686
In reply to No, no attachment came… by Beths
Got the file through the link. I sent a reply but do not see it posted, so I will reply again. I see what one of the problems in our communication is: You were saying that I needed a dynamic marking before a hairpin and I had one... but it was two measures BEFORE the sample I sent you. Visible to me but nonexistent to you. And I want to thank you for all the help you gave and the piece is working perfectly now. Thanks a lot.
In reply to No, no attachment came… by Beths
Got the file through the link. I sent a reply but do not see it posted so I will reply again. I see what one of the problems in our communication was: You were saying that I needed a dynamic marking before a hairpin and I had one (ha, why is he missing that "mf"?)... but it was two measures BEFORE the sample I sent you. Visible to me but nonexistent to you. And I want to thank you for all the help you gave and report that the piece is working perfectly now. Thanks a lot.
In reply to Got the file through the… by Beths
Excellent, glad we could help!
In reply to Got the file through the… by Beths
Good to hear.
In reply to It says it is not found,… by Beths
Attachment came through. The hairpin is causing the volume to jump up. I'm pretty sure it's not meant to do that.
In reply to Ok, I have copied out a… by Beths
You score is uploaded with no problems. I'm looking at it to try to find the problem with it, but I don't see any of the usual mistakes or alterations people do. It plays exactly as you describe in both 2.1 and 2.2.1.
In reply to You score is uploaded with… by mike320
Deleting the hairpin sorts the problem out. Inserting the hairpin again brings the problem back. Inserting the hairpin on the Bass staff (and moving it for a better appearance) does not cause the problem. Even curiouser, changing the Dynamic range for the hairpin from Part to Stave takes the problem away again.
In reply to Deleting the hairpin sorts… by underquark
Changing things in F8 to Staff helped a lot, but still having trouble with volume where there are no hairpins. It keeps cruising along as if there are no dynamic markings in some places. Others work fine. Beth
In reply to Ok, I have copied out a… by Beths
Issue is that hairpins work on the preceding dynamic as found earlier in their staff. You have a hairpin applied to the treble staff, but your only dynamic is in the bass. Fixing the issue is as simple as sticking a dynamic in the treble staff before the hairpin. Make it invisible if you don't want it seen, and preferably the same dynamic as the one in the bass staff so that you don't have another volume jump.
Now, if you wanted the two staves to have different dynamics, you have to put in a bit more work. Every object regarding volume has a box in the inspector regarding where they are applied. Flip them to staff, and they just apply to the individual staff. Part, and they alter the entire instrument. System, and they effect the volume of everything in the score. You still need to have a dynamic in the treble staff for the hairpin to work, but if you set everything to staff, you'll probably get something closer to what you want. In that case, the dynamic you put in the treble clef can be whatever you want.
In reply to Issue is that hairpins work… by LuuBluum
Thanks, that helped a LOT. Most of the problems are gone but... ha, always a hitch! Some places with no hairpins are not following their dynamic markings even though I went through the whole piece and changed every dynamic marking and every hairpin to "Staff".