Changing clarinet types

• Mar 13, 2013 - 23:20

I was wondering how to change the B flat clarinet to a B Clarinet.And would this apply to other instruments such as a E flat cornet etc..I'm asking because I am working on some arrangments that call for different keyed instruments than what musescore offers.I haven't found a way for this nor an explanation in the handbook.
I am using ver1.2.Thank You

Comments

• Mar 14, 2013 - 04:59

But if you do really mean a B clarinet (which I have never heard of anyone making, either) you can change both the name and transposition of any instrument by right clicking an empty place in the staff and choosing Staff Properties.

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• Mar 17, 2013 - 16:36

Thanks a lot Mr. Sabatella !!!!!!
I'm a Dutch user and I met a similar problem to the present B-flat tuba. According to Musescore 1.3 this instrument is (somewhat odd???) keyed in C.
Thanks to your advice and by using "Staff Properties" I happened to change the transposition of the B-flat tuba to the real B-flat notation !!

( In the Dutch version of this forum-site I have been waiting for three weeks for any reaction and/or answer to my problem and got still no response up till now .........................-somewhat odd-????? )

So thanks a very lot again and again !!!!!!
INNOSTOF (retired music-teacher / brassband-arranger in the South-West part of the Netherlands)

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• Mar 17, 2013 - 17:03

It's not a bug. Parts for tubas *are* written and read in concert pitch - even for tubas that are actually pitched in Bb. It is up to the player to know how to finger correctly for the specific instrument he is playing. Which is to say, tubas work very differently from saxophones or most other brass instruments in this respect. Valve trombones and euphoniums are also instruments that are actually pitched in Bb but read & write concert pitch.

So it is incorrect to treat a tuba as a transposing instrument. At least, that is the case in most of the world. It is true that in the British brass band tradition, parts for these instruments *are* transposed, and also written in treble clef. But for most of the world, the low brass instruments are written in bass clef at concert pitch - even instruments that are actually pitched in Bb like Bb tubas.

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• Mar 17, 2013 - 17:16

Oops, oops, oops, Jojo-Schmitz, thanks for your reaction.
If someone is going to repair and to fix bugs in instruments.xml, please report the following similar problems:

"EUPHONIUM" has to be keyed in B-flat. In MS 1.3 it still happens to be C !!!!!

And then: very, very odd (to me):
The F TUBA (as mentioned in MS 1.3) appears to be keyed in C too !!!!!! Seems impossible but it's true!

That is the strangest bug I ever met in a music-program, and surely MuseScore-unworthy !!!

So far my comments, my English is fairly unsufficient to continue this conversation. Soon it will get more complicated, so I hope to meet here a Dutch Musescore-organizer to learn and to tell more about this subject.

Anyhow, thanks a lot again and again,
INNOSTOF

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• Mar 17, 2013 - 17:55

Again, see my comments abive. These are all *correct*. In most of the world, all tubas and euphoniums *are* treated as concert pitch instruments. It is only within the British brass band tradition - and in the US at least, some music written for school children just making the adjustment from trumpet to other brass instruments - that these instruments are treated as transposing instruments.

So, again, it is *not a bug* thta Musescore treats these instruments the way most of the world treats them. But as an enhancement, it would definitely be good if MuseScore offered alternative "British brass bamd" variations of these instruments in the instrument list, so people wishing to write in that fashion could do so without needing to change the clef and transposition in staff properties after score creation. And I believe that is already being planned. Or at least, it is certaiinly a known issue - the fact that some percentage of MuseScore users will want to treat low brass instruments as transposing instruments. So I do believe both options should be present. But the current behavior, again, is correct and the more common convention in most of the world.

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• Mar 17, 2013 - 17:08

See my comments above. In most of the world, Bb tuba parts *are* written and read in concert pitch. I mentioned the British brass band tradition as the exception; it's possible that where your experience lies? But in most of the world, tubas are concert pitch instruments, whether they are C, Bb, Eb, or F tubas. See the Wikipedia artivcle on tubas, and in particular, the following paragraph:

"Most music for the tuba is written in bass clef in concert pitch, so tuba players must know the correct fingerings for their specific instrument. Traditional British-style brass band parts for the tuba are usually written in treble clef, with the B♭ tuba sounding two octaves and one step below and the E♭ tuba sounding one octave and a major sixth below the written pitch. This allows musicians to change instruments without learning new fingerings for the same written music. Consequently, when its music is written in treble clef, the tuba is a transposing instrument, but not when the music is in bass clef."

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• Mar 17, 2013 - 20:52

You can always create a template for British Brass Band instruments - either as a full or partial score or just for one instrument - but it would still be useful if MuseScore gave the user the option of selecting Tuba (concert pitch) or Bass in Bb (brass band), Bass in Eb (brass band). I'd draw the line at creating a B clarinet, however, as it must surely be a very rare beast but it would perhaps be good if a feature could be incorporated to easily add instruments of your own (much as one adds shortcuts).

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• Mar 18, 2013 - 00:04

The addition of UK Brass Band instruments as a separate category is on my list of "things to do" whilst overhauling instruments.xml.

I have enough work with getting the original file MusicXML 3 compatible, so I'm afraid UK Brass Band instruments will be a case of if and when that is complete. ie WHEN I have completed MusicXML 3 compatibility and IF there is time before the release of MuseScore 2

There is a set of UK Brass Band templates available however for those who wish to use them, and a search of musescore.org should throw them up.

EDIT: ON closer examination the UK Brass Band template is available in the template library within MuseScore 1.3. If you wish to use this select Create Score from Template in the Create Score dialogue and scroll down to the bottom of the listed templates. You will find it there.

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• Mar 17, 2013 - 23:46

My dear MS-collegues,

My final and definite comment goes within the "File Attachment".
I respect Mr. Sabatella's world-wide explanation to many strange exceptions to the rules, but I can't use them.

Try (for instance) to explain all that jazz to a simple peasant, who is very happy to read an d to play some notes and tones on his (B-flat)-Tuba, but in the same time doesn't understand the notation and the key he's playing in (in comparison with other compositions ans instruments).

I spent another four ours to "compose" the file attachment (please try to do the same in Dutch !!!), so that's enough to me.
I REST MY CASE !!!!

God bless you all.

INNOSTOF

Attachment Size
BRASS-SECTION IN MUSESCORE 1.3.mscz 4.46 KB

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• Mar 18, 2013 - 00:41

I think you still misundersatand. The language barrier can't be helping, but perhaps someone who is more fluent in English than you can read my posts and explain them to you better.

I am not sure if you are not experienced with low brass instruments, or if you learned the British method and simply are not aware that most of the world does things differently.

The example you post is 100% correct. That is exactly how music is supposed to be written for the different instruments. At least, in most of the world. it doesn't matter if the musician is a peasant or a king - in most of the world, tubas and euphoniums read in concert pitch, always. You might be playing a Bb euphonium - meaning it has been tuned so that the fundamental tone produced with no valves depressed is a Bb - but you read at concert pitch. You learn that to play a mid-staff C, you play valves 1 & 3, and it never occurs to you (unless someone tells you) that other instruments use 1&3 to make a D, not a C. See this fingering chart if you doubt me:

http://www.norlanbewley.com/euphonium/fingering-positions.htm

It is the same with the trombone, which is also a Bb instrument in that the fundamental tone produced in first position (or open, for valve trombone) is a Bb, and yet it reads in concert pitch. A trombone player knows that to play a C mid-staff, he needs to put the slide in sixth position, or else play 1&3 for valve trombone.

So it really is the case that you write "C" if you want a C played on a tuba, *no matter if it's a C, Bb, Eb, or F tuba*. This way, the same tuba part can be played by any tuba player, no matter which version of tuba he plays. Tuba players around the world - whether peasants or kings - simply learn the correct fingering for their particular instrument. A C tuba player that low C is open, but a Bb tuba play learns that low C is 1&3, and so on, And yes, that means it is can be difficult to adjust from playing one tuba to another, as you have to learn a totally separate set of fingerings. Tuba players - both peasants and kings - have been dealing with this for centuries, but that's just how it is.

See the following fingering charts to see that notes really are fingered differently depending on which tuba you play:

C- http://www.norlanbewley.com/tuba/fingering-tuba-2.htm
Bb - http://www.norlanbewley.com/tuba/fingering-tuba-1.htm
Eb - http://www.norlanbewley.com/tuba/fingering-tuba-3.htm
F - http://www.norlanbewley.com/tuba/fingering-tuba-5.htm

Seems crazy, I agree, but this really is how low brass players in most of the world learn their instruments.

Except, again, in England, where things *do* work as you describe. Although actually, not quite. In England, the parts are also written in treble clef, even for tuba.

Now, it *might* be that parts of the Netherlands really do work the way you describe - transposed but in bass clef. Please accept that this is *unusual*, however - most of the world definitely does *not* read music that way

So if you do need to write music for musicians who learned to read the way you describe, then you simply need to do what we have already explained, and use Staff Properties to change the transposition. This will produce music notated the way you describe. Just be aware that most tuba and euphonium players in the world will play the part wrong, because they will be expecting concert pitch, not music that has been transposed. So only change the transposition for your parts if you *know* the music will only be played by the musicians who learned to read music your way, rather than musicians who learned the way it is done in most of the rest of the world.

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• Mar 18, 2013 - 09:19

I feel I should clarify Marc's last statement a little.

Tuba and euphonium parts are written in concert pitch for orchestral players, that is world-wide, including the UK.

There are, however, a number of different methods of scoring for brass band, the most popular of which is the UK Brass Band format, in which the tuba is treated as a transposing instrument.

I quote from http://www.netplaces.com/music-composition/writing-for-wind-instruments…

With the exception of British brass band music, tuba parts are written in bass clef and in concert pitch. Because composers typically do not specify the type of tuba to be used, tubists must be able to interpret the music and transpose if necessary. One exception to this is the F Wagner tuba, which is notated accordingly. Overall, tubists must choose the horn type that best matches the demands of the composition and/or the musical setting; this is one reason why orchestral tubists in the United States typically use the concert pitched CC tuba. Figure 17-17 shows the range for CC bass and contrabass tubas; note that the range is the same.

I would, check with your players, therefore, whether they are expecting their parts in concert or transposed. This will depend on whether they learned to play in a brass band, or in the orchestral/concert band environment.

HTH
Michael

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• Mar 18, 2013 - 09:21

And I believe even the Welsh have been known to play the odd brass instrument; something to do with all that coal, perhaps? There are, in fact, British-style brass bands throughout the world and not just in the obvious places where British people settled - Mexico, for instance, has brass bands. So, brass band support would likely be welcomed by many users.

" In England, the parts are also written in treble clef, even for tuba."

Anyway, since ChurchOrganist is involved with instruments.xml I'll pm him with my rapidly-hacked version for brass/marching/military band and even if it's not incorporated into version 2.0 I hope it helps for the future.

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• Mar 18, 2013 - 14:30

While it's true there are brass bands all over the world, it is not necessarily true that they use the British system of writing low brass transposed and in treble clef. The ones I know certainly do not. Still, no doubt, *some* brass bands outside the UK use this system. And as Michael observes, *orchestral* music in the UK uses concert pitch / bass clef parts; only the brass band music does not (and I would be surprised if there weren't *some* brass bands in the UK that use concert pitch bass clef).

So indeed, yes, it is overly simplistic to say it's Britain against the world. It's more accurate to say it's *one specific musical tradition* against the rest, and it just happens that this one musical tradition is most associated with Britain.

FWIW, I remember being slightly freaked out the first time I learned about all this.. As a former clarinet player, i just assumed all wnd instruments pitched other than in C uses transposed parts. On the other hand, there are those unfamiliar with transposing instruments who are even more freaked out when they first encounter that concept.

Smetimes I wish I had a time machine, and I often think the first thing I'd do is go back and try to influence the course of music notation to make it all more logical :-)

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• Mar 18, 2013 - 15:53

British brass bands comprise Eb and Bb instruments (trombonists can be a bit of a grey area, however). Maybe originally it was to allow ease of learning and adaptability (a player of one instrument could readily play another) as such bands made the transition from military (early and mid 18th century) through Salvation Army (1870's) to civilian life in general (early 19th century). By the mid 19th century they already had a large body of music written for Eb and Bb brass (as well Bb clarinet, saxophone in many marches) and then when competitions started (1853) the instruments became even more formally standardised, as did the music. Today most UK brass bands will try and take part in at least one competition per year and all the music for this is standardised (though it isn't all marches any more - see attached) and the number and type of instruments is specified (usually 25 brass players plus up to 3 percussionists).

Some players in brass bands also play in orchestras and they don't usually have a problem moving from, say, C trumpet to Bb cornet or from a 6-valve F tuba to a Bb bass with 4 valves. Many trombonists are happy with reading either treble or bass clef and transposing as they play. Creating a separate section of brass band instruments won't necessarily help those skilled players but it might make it a bit easier to write for them. Not essential (templates exist) but I'd have thought there was at least as much demand for writing for brass band than for the ocarina or sarrusophone.

Attachment Size
Cross Patonce (extract).mscz 5.17 KB

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• Oct 25, 2015 - 12:10

A bit late, but as I have only just joined, I though I would add my tuppence.

It is definitely en exaggeration to say that in most of the world tubas and euphoniums are always scored at concert pitch and that British brass bands are the exception. As a baritone, euphonium and occasional trombone player in a marching band and a wind orchestra in France, I can confirm that French BAND scores are usually written transposed for low brass. But, unlike the British band tradition, they are very often (except for the baritone) written in the bass clef. I have just come across a Dutch and score where the Bb trombone part was transposed in both treble and bass clefs, as in the French tradition. Nearly all the American scores we play come with low brass parts in both treble clef (transposed) and bass clef (concert pitch). As far more people play low brass in bands than in symphony orchestras, it is probably wise to treat the "non transposing" attribute of low brass in orchestras as an aberration rather than as the norm: after all, a skilled orchestral player will manage with either.

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• Mar 18, 2013 - 08:47

Thanks a lot, Mr. Sabatella, for your last comment (18-03-2013, 12.41am).
The very last part of your very interesting explanation, meant a real relief to me.

The music-arrangement I'm working at will never (NEVER!!!) reach any tuba-player in the world.
It is meant for a local concertband (35 people and 2 tuba-players - two guys who are glad that they are able to read the local papers and that they are able to write their own names ....................) in a small village (3.500 people) in the South-western part of my country.
Their tuba-parts will never be used by other bass-players, not even within a distance of 20 km's.
Anyhow and anyway, thanks a lot again.

INNOSTOF

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• Mar 20, 2013 - 17:37

It just occurred to me. Way back at the beginning of the post we were asked about writing music for a clarinet in B. Is the OP referring to music published in Europe where sometimes B flat was referred to as B and B natural was referred to as H?

I was looking at an old (Russian) copy of a score for the 1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky and it has parts for "Clarinetti in B". He has them playing with one flat in the key signature and the concert pitch instruments with three flats indicating that they are, in fact B flat clarinets. The canon are in bass clef but with no key signature although, interestingly, he sometimes has them "playing" a D and sometimes an E (all minims or half-notes).

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• Mar 21, 2013 - 21:33

OK lonewolf331, do you mean you read a part that appeared to call for a clarinet in B or do you have an actual instrument in B that you are writing for?

Also, what do you mean about E Flat cornet? Apart from custom instruments they just don't make em in E, F or whatever, any more, only B flat and E flat. There are, of course, C, D, F, A etc. trumpets and if you mean to take music written for an E flat cornet and play it on one of those then transposition is what you are seeking and you may be glad to know that MuseScore can do this for you.

To confuse the issue, of course, Concert-Pitch used to be different for different countries and even for different orchestras within a given country. Most of the world tried to standardise at A=440Hz in 1939 but the brass bands chugged along playing at a higher pitch for another 30 years or so in some cases. So, older instruments may (or may not) be pitched a bit differently to what you'd expect.

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• Mar 24, 2013 - 02:02

Wow alot of feedback on this.Ok I'm using musescore for a couple of reasons.I play classical guitar and I'm using this program to better understand the writing and notation practices,as well as timing.I'm using pieces that I like and find in PDF format and input them into Musescore.What brought this question up is Beethovens 9th Symphony.These are the instruments listed in the score.
Flauti; Oboi; Clarinetti in B; Faggotti; Corni in D; Corni in B basso; Trombe in D; Tmpani in D.A.; Violino I; Violino II; Viola; Violoncello; Basso.
As a self taught guitarist I am far from knowledgable of all the aspects of the music world.My experience has been with small pieces arranged for guitar.There were a couple of others,like Mozarts Symphony No.25 that called for specific keyed instruments So I was wondering how to get te instruments in MS and scored properly.

Edit:also I'm looking at my New Score instruments list and it lists an Eflat,a Bflat and an A clarinet as well as an Eflat and Blat Cornet.

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• Mar 24, 2013 - 04:12

Ah, then underquark had it right. Beethoven was German. In Germany, what the rest of us call Bb is called B, and what the rest of us call B is called H. So if you see an instrument in a German score referred to as a "B" instrument, it really means Bb.

Meaning, you don't need or want to change the transposition of the Bb clarinets. If you wsh to emulate the appearance of the German editions, you can change the name to "B", but you definitely need to leave the transpositipn as it is. But if for some reason you ever really did need to change transpositipn, that can be done, as describe aove int he thread - both name and transposition are controlled from the Staff Properties dialog that you can get by right clicking a staff.

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