Swing phrase
Hello
I'm wanting to put my song into a swing form. I'm wondering if I oughtn't just find a swing song and convert my notes to this pattern. I imagine the words will split into quaver notes.
The red river valley. When I'm sixty four, worried man blues , you are my sunshine. I've never thought of these songs as swing.
Understanding would be such a help. Thanks, if you can. Michelle D
Comments
"Swing" is kind of vague term, but whatever it does mean, it isn't really a "form". Maybe you are referring to swing eighth notes specifically? All you need to do to make your eighth notes get played as swing is add the corresponding element from the Text palette.
"When I'm Sixty Four" is definitely in a swing style in pretty much every sense of the word, including the basic idea of the eighth notes being played/sung in the typical long-short pattern. The others not so much.
In reply to "Swing" is kind of vague… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks Marc. I presume a dotted quaver and sixteenth would make the long short pattern. I will look at the song you mention. Cheers.
In reply to Thanks Marc. I presume a… by mpvick
Dotted eighth sixteenth is long-short, yes, but way too exaggerated to sound like swing. A closer approximation involves triplets, but that's still not right. True swing is more subtle than that - the longer note is only slightly longer than the short, not 2 or 3 times as long. That's why I am saying, the way to get this in MuseScore is using the text element designed exactly for that purpose.
I only mentioned "When I'm Sixty-Four" because you did :-). If you really want to understand swing, I'd go to the source - listening to jazz / big band recordings from the 1930's and 1940's for example. For example, classics like "In The Mood", music by Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Lester Young, Charlie Parker, etc.
In reply to Dotted eighth sixteenth is… by Marc Sabatella
Mmm Sounds fair. Thanks
In reply to Mmm Sounds fair. Thanks by mpvick
Hi Michelle,
I created a score that may help explain the concept of swing and swinging eighths.
NOTE: I've updated the original attachment and added a second page of explanation.
Intro to swing (a boogie example and explanation).mscz
scorster
In reply to I created a score that may… by scorster
Hi that looks real good. Very kind of you.
In reply to I created a score that may… by scorster
@scorster...
Nice example, and having noticed the page's footer...
...the "singingwood" guitar sounds like a "swinging wood".
:-)
In reply to @scorster... Nice example,… by Jm6stringer
Hey 6stringer,
Swingingwood strikes again!
I've updated the score and attached it above (in the post where it was originally posted.)
scorster
I believe that a swing song is any song that can be swung, and is probably impossible to define.
I can't find anything on YouTube for When I'm sixty four, or The red river valley that could be considered to swing. So I conclude that they are probably not suited to a swing version.
If you listen to Oscar Peterson playing You are my sunshine - That is swing..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGv4XRr2f-g
Also, try the Armstrong version of Wild Man Blues (not worried man blues)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO3k-S_pqK4
Swing is much more than dotted quavers. It involved subtle changes in emphasis, early and late changes in timing of notes, and interactions between the other players in the band.
I think that swing is so complex that it cannot be written down.
As Louis Armstrong famously said, “If you don’t feel it, you’ll never know it.”
In reply to I believe that a swing song… by wmkennerley
As I said, swing is a broad term, and yes, it can encompass a lot of different elements. but the eighth note ration is certainly one of them - one can talk about playing with "swing eighths" even in a piece that is not "swing" in any other sense. And the original version of "When I'm Sixty-Four" definitely has swing eighths. The kind of exaggerated, shuffly type of swing you might expect from a rock band, but nevertheless, it does illustrate the bass idea well. You hear it right off the bat in the opening clarinet riff and vocals as well.
I don't think it's productive to debate about whether the piece as a whole exemplifies enough of the other attributes of swing to "qualify" in general. Which is to say, I won't argue with anyone who says it is, or it isn't. I just want to make sure someone isn't misled into thing that it doesn't use swing eighth eighth notes, because someone still trying to understand the concept might hear those then hear another song that is generally considered swing and wonder, when it comes to eighth notes specifically, "what's the difference". And they'd be right to wonder :-)
In reply to As I said, swing is a broad… by Marc Sabatella
HI Marc, that's exactly what I'm thinking. 'What's the difference?" lol I can't see it yet. I can hear it but not see it. I have to try and put my 'hear into see' it on paper. lol Playing Ukulele the swing rhythm is fine as well, but I want to make it on paper. blah. I never thought to look at the bass chords. I'm thinking one has to rock side to side to establish swing rhythm like being in time with a actual swing on a tree. I will get it one day in my hands
In reply to HI Marc, that's exactly what… by mpvick
mpvick wrote 'Playing Ukulele the swing rhythm is fine as well, but I want to make it on paper... I have to try and put my 'hear into see' it on paper.
The simple answer: Write it straight. Play it swing.
I'm thinking one has to rock side to side to establish swing rhythm like being in time with a actual swing on a tree.
The sound of walking or running = straight. Each foot gets equal time.
The sound of skipping = swing.
You'll get it if you persist. For years I didn't notice swing as much as I should have.
scorster
In reply to mpvick wrote 'Playing… by scorster
Hi Scorster.
Sounds like a good feeling treating it like skipping. ta muchly. I'll have to check that out.
In reply to Hi Scorster. Sounds like a… by mpvick
If anybody here is still struggling with the concept of swing and it's various styles of notation, here's another set of examples:
I'm a Little Teapot (Swing Study).mscz
scorster
In reply to If anybody here is still… by scorster
Hi Scorster Thanks for this. All grist for the study. I just want to ask how you got the Swing = 61% to work on the score. I can put swing up from text but I think you've highlighted all the score and made it work for it all and added a %. ta
In reply to Hi Scorster Thanks for this… by mpvick
Hi Michelle,
To apply swing to an entire score use Format>Style>Score. Near the bottom of the dialog configure the swing you want:
That will stay in force until overridden by a Staff or System Text object bearing a Swing property.
To set swing on a System or Staff Text object:
• select the object
• In the Inspector click the Properties Button.
• set the swing of your liking in the Swing tab
The swing imparted by a System or Staff Text object remains in force until overridden by another Staff or System Text object.
And there's a Swing palette item that add a System Text object with a default value of 60% swing
scorster
In reply to Hi Michelle, To affect an… by scorster
I recommend against using the obsolete style option here - it's behavior in conjunction with the text is not defined (however it happens to work today may change tomorrow) and in fact the whole option may well go away since it is no longer needed now that we have the text method. it's really there only for support of pre-2.0 scores.
The supported way to add swing is to simply add the marking from the palette as I've explained. This defaults to a ratio of 60%, but you can indee override that later if you wish using System Text Properties as shown above.
In reply to I recommend against using… by Marc Sabatella
Hi Marc,
If I'm understanding your post, you're advising users to invoke/change swing settings via System Text—which of course is what we get with the Swing palette item.
Does that mean you recommend against using Staff Text for setting swing? For instance in a single instrument single staff score would that be problematic?
And to be clear, you're saying that Format>Style>Score>Swing Settings is an "obsolete style option"??
BTW, I updated my prior post to mention the Swing palette item.
scorster
In reply to I recommend against using… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks Marc. I'm happy that it was something I did know. I began to wonder if I had an incorrect version. all good and great for the input.
In reply to If anybody here is still… by scorster
Here's one more example to mull
Swing vs. Straight (Lucy Farr).mscz
In reply to I believe that a swing song… by wmkennerley
HELLO. I had a listen to the passed Mike Lynch on ukulele and he also said. 'One has to feel it. ' I'm used to dancing these rhythms but getting to the fingers is a different skill. I'll just swap them around. lol I'm thinking I might get the rhythm footwork imprint and use my hands to play it out. ahhhhh blah. Because watching Mike Lynch, he plays straight beat first then moves like a swing. It's all in the feel! Gotta get that on the piano.
In reply to HELLO. I had a listen to the… by mpvick
I thought I would post separate from my others. I'm wondering if any song can be rhythm-ed to a swing as some ballads can be sung in reggae that weren't initially scored for it. e.g. I heard a singer at country music that converted a song to reggae rhythm. Metaphor in a cha cha, the dance is upper and lower body, the dance ceroc taken from this has slower foot movements but uses all the upper body twists. That reminds me of a grand staff movement, quicker on the treble clef and slower on the bass clef.
Rhythm is a big subject. Time signature doesn't really impact. If we write down a syncopated strum, it could feel like whatever we want on how we sing the words and strum. I'm not sure if beat has a big role either. Syncopated piece need quavers and the quaver rests but not necessarily all through the score.
I need a checklist to see if I'm progressing. blah Learning never ends, I'm on a long sloooow journey. Imagine writing a rock-a-billy song! Glad you'll here though. Whew!!!
In reply to I thought I would post… by mpvick
Certainly, any melody involving eighth notes can be played/sung using swing eighths if you so choose. Just take any melody in MuseScore that uses eighths, listen to it, then add the Swing text and list again.
As mentioned, the general "style" of Swing is much more than just eighth note ratios - it would have to do with how the accompaniment is organized and much more, so that's a whole other subject - jazz arranging. But the basic idea of swing eighths is, again, trivially simple, just listen to a melody in MuseScore with an without the Swing text to hear what that is.
In reply to Certainly, any melody… by Marc Sabatella
Hi Marc
I notice the swing text doesn't really have that much of a change since the note values make the swing rhythm. Does it just smooth it out? Cause if I put swing to a 4/4 with quarter notes it makes no impression on the rhythm.
In reply to Hi Marc I notice the swing… by mpvick
if I put swing to a 4/4 with quarter notes it makes no impression on the rhythm.
Well,right.Relative to swinging eighths quarters are "swing neutral."
Musescore is equipped to swing eighths or sixteenths. With swinging sixteens, eighths are swing neutral.
scorster
In reply to Hi Marc I notice the swing… by mpvick
As I have tried to make clear, the only and only thing the Swing text does is change the ratio of eighth notes. It has no effect whatsoever on any other type of note, and no effect on anything else that someone might want to say is part of what a "Swing" style should also involve. All it does is make the first eighth of each pair longer than the second, that and nothing else. but that in itself is a big deal, as you can easily hear if you apply it to any score with eighth notes.
In reply to As I have tried to make… by Marc Sabatella
Swing text works on 8th or 16th.
In reply to Swint test works on 8th or… by Jojo-Schmitz
Only if you customize it :-). When added from the palette directly, it only affects eighths, so simply adding it to a score will have that effect and no other.
In reply to Only if you customize it :-)… by Marc Sabatella
True
In reply to Only if you customize it :-)… by Marc Sabatella
Hi Marc. How do we customize it? Oh dear, this got me curious.
In reply to Hi Marc. How do we customize… by mpvick
Right-click, System Text Properties, Swing
In reply to Right-click, System Text… by Jojo-Schmitz
what are you right clicking on. I tried the note, the measure, the tempo, Might be another version. I printed it in from Add. Text. system text swing. Cntrl Shift T
In reply to what are you right clicking… by mpvick
Any System-or Staff text. Like the Swing text from the text palette, after having added it to the score
See further up...
In reply to what are you right clicking… by mpvick
Actually this is all fully documented in the handbook, see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/3/swing
In reply to Actually this is all fully… by Jojo-Schmitz
cool thanks
In reply to what are you right clicking… by mpvick
That's not how I was recommending you add the Swing text - much simpler and more effective to simply add it from the text palette. What you did won't have any playback effect all until you customize it using System Text Properties. if you use the palette, it works right out of the box.
In reply to That's not how I was… by Marc Sabatella
Thanks Marc. Much simpler for me. appreciate
In reply to As I have tried to make… by Marc Sabatella
I think I get what you are saying. without using dotted. I finally heard it. How fab is that. What a difference to a song. It makes it more playful.
In reply to I believe that a swing song… by wmkennerley
Hi wmkennerley
'You are my sunshine' is not how we sing or play it in country . hahaha.
I can feel and hear the swing in your video example. So cool. very jazz is it?
When I listen to it. Did you notice any staccato, trills or 16ths in Oscar Peterson's version.
If I look at the plain version there are not a lot of note variation. so he is converting notes to different values? Sounds like i gotta understand Jazz.