Comment on MuseScore 2.0.2
I must be doing something wrong. I recently downloaded MuseScore 2.0.2 into a PC running Windows 10. I arrange music for a brass band, so I am particularly interested in MuseScore's brass family. The upgrade has some nice features, but in my experience of it so far, and with reference only to the brass instruments, sound quality is not one of them. Even with the mixer's reverberation and chorus controls turned completely off, the instruments sound "furry" and as though they are playing at the bottom of a well - particularly with the lower brass. When I try to play 16 lines of instruments simultaneously, which is what I work with most of the time, the result is a mess.
MuseScore has long been a magnificent service to musicians. I have been using Version 1.2 for years and treasure it, so the upgrade is a disappointment. I'll be sticking with V.1.2 until I can get V.2.0.2 to work at least as well as V.1.2. Sorry to be negative about something I value greatly. Ned Kelly.
Comments
Hi!!!
I'm not the "master of the masters" about MuseScore or any other music software. But, I think the problem you're talking about isn't a MuseScore problem.
It is a "SOUNDFONT" problem.
I mean: the sound you will be hear from the MuseScore synthesizer, is the sound that the soundfont file you are using gives you. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you are using the FluidR3Mono_GM.sf3 soundfont (included with MuseScore), the brass are absolutely bad.
I use the Generaluser GS MuseScore v1.442.sf2 soundfont and... sounds better (not the best sound I hear in my life, but...)
So, try with other soundfont files up you reach the sound you want to get.
Of course, remember it is a machine. Nothing can replace the human musician and the real acoustic instruments.
BTW: The MuseScore synthesizer can use more than one soundfont file at a time. So you can use 2, 3, 4 or more soundfont files, with different sound to your instruments. For example: trumpet from one specific soundfont, French Horns from another soundfont, Trombone from other soundfont, etc. etc. etc.
Greetings & Blessings!!!!!!!
Juan
In reply to Hi!!! I'm not the "master of by jotape1960
Thank you Juan for responding to my comments about the MuseScore upgrade to V.2.0.2. I have managed to do as you have suggested and the GS MuseScore sound font is now the default sound font for V.2.0.2.
This action has cleaned the sound up a bit, but excessive reverberation remains the main problem. Even with all the available controls turned off as mentioned above, none of the brass has a clean brassy sound and the total effect is more like a church organ recital than the sound of a brass band.
Nevertheless, you have given me some hope that things can be better and you have taken me into parts of MuseScore that I haven't been before. That alone has been interesting.
Thanks again.
Ned
In reply to Thank you Juan for responding by Ned Kelly
It's possible something is set up incorrectly somehow. You might consider doing a "Revert to factory settings" as described in the Handbook. The new soundfont is actually much much better than the old in most people's opinions, although of course it's subjective and some disagree.
As for reverb, there is a small amount added by default, msot people liek it, but if you don't, you can trun it off via View / Synthesizer / Master Effects. It is true the Mixer does not affect this - the reverb controls there are for external syntehsizers.
In reply to It's possible something is by Marc Sabatella
Thank you Marc for your help with MuseScore 2.0.2.
Acting on your suggestion, I decided to uninstall my copy of MuseScore and I downloaded a new copy, which I assume would have the same effect as reverting to factory settings. I also recreated from scratch a couple of pages of the brass band score I had been using. I have been using a file that had been created using V.1.2. and I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that it would behave correctly when opened using V.2.0.2.
I was pleased to find that the brass instruments now sound like brass instruments, although the excessive reverberation remained annoying. I have started experimenting with the master settings in the mixer, but I haven't finished doing that yet.
I now have a lot more variables to play with than I had at the start of this discussion, so thanks again for your help.
Ned
In reply to Thank you Marc for your help by Ned Kelly
First of all - Reinstalling MuseScore does not have the same effect as a Revert to Factory Settings - the configuration files are not overwritten, as this would mean personal preferences painstakingly set by the user would be over-written every time there was a software update.
Further to Marc's comments.......
The control you should be most interested in I suspect on the Reverb page is the Wet/Dry mix.
This controls how much of each of the 2 signals reaches the final audio outputs - the Wet signal is from the reverb unit, the Dry signal is from the internal Fluid synth.
So if you set the Wet/Dry knob to Dry there will be no reverb reaching the audio outputs at all.
Similarly if you set it to Wet all the signal will be from the Reverb unit and none from the Internal Synth.
If you want to find out what the other knobs do - go here........
http://kokkinizita.linuxaudio.org/linuxaudio/zita-rev1-doc/quickguide.h…
I have never been a fan of the FluidR3 default soundfont - the quality of many of the samples used to produce it is, quite frankly, abominable, and I am trying, as time permits, to gradually improve the quality. It is a non-trivial task, however.
There are several soundfonts around which may give you a better sound - General User GS is ok, but there are better soundfonts out there - you might try the Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra soundfont which has recently been made GM2 compatible by String Contrabass.
If you would care to visit the Soundfont section of the forums you will find several options that may improve sound for you.
Finding a suitable soundfont for brass band is problematic, basically people seem to produce Brass for pop, big band and orchestra, but no-one has produced one for a specialist Brass Band sound - if you have access to a brass then maybe you could record the samples for a specialist Brass Band soundfont. There certainly seems to be a need for one judging by the number of queries I turned up with a Google search.
If you would be interested on collaborating on a project like this, let me know.
In reply to First of all - Reinstalling by ChurchOrganist
Thank you ChurchOrganist for your very helpful advice. The more I learn, the more I realise how much I don't know.
I will certainly follow up all the links you have provided, but in this particular case, the heart of the matter seems to be the lack of an available, specialised brass-family sound font. I don't think even Garage Band has a complete range of brass instruments in its collection.
I have no idea how to create a sound font from scratch, but the possibility of doing so is a stimulating thought. I do have access to some good brass instrumentalists. I'd like to get back to you on that once I've followed up all the other leads you have suggested.
Thanks again. Ned.
In reply to Thank you ChurchOrganist for by Ned Kelly
To create a soundfont file from the scratch, you need:
1) A full recording studio (special room, pro mikes, an analog to digital audio converter, a good computer with a good audio software, a very good amplifier and better speakers, or headphones).
2) All the human musician you need to all the instruments you want to collect to your soundfont.
3) Experiment a lot with the musicians and the mikes up to get the best samples you want to get (different positions of the mikes, the instruments, the musician; different pitches and expressions).
4) When you got all the samples you need, then you have to learn how to use, deeply, a soundfont file creator software (like Creative Vienna, or Polyphone). With that software you will be ready to create your soundfont file.
Sorry, I'm so lazy to do something like that and I don't have enough money to pay the musicians. SO... I just write the score and let my church choir sings it, with a pre-recorded instrumental track in the background (score and track done with MuseScore, of course).
Greetings & Blessings from Chile!!!!!!!
Juan
In reply to To create a soundfont file by jotape1960
Hello again, Juan.
You have confirmed ChurchOrganist's remark that creating a sound font from scratch, "is no trivial task."
I've had a bit of a look around the Internet since ChurchOrganist mentioned it and I now know enough to make a rough calculation: the project would require samples from 10 different brass instruments (Bb Bass, Eb Bass, Bass Trombone, Trombone, Euphonium, Baritone, Eb Horn, Flugelhorn, Bb Cornet and Eb Soprano cornet) across a working range of about two octaves (26 semitones) = 10 x 26 = 260 different samples to edit and package. Phew! All of that is possible, but I do not have access to a full recording studio. I think I'll go and tilt at windmills instead!
Thanks for your valuable advice. Greetings and Blessings back to you from Australia!
Ned
In reply to Hello again, Juan. You have by Ned Kelly
Today's technbology means that you do not have to have a full recording studio to achieve good recordings.
Perfectly adequate results can be obtained by using one of the modern portable digital recorders such as the Zoom H1 in a normal, carefully chosen room. All processing can then be done at home using sample editing software such as Audacity.
The room chosen should have a dry acoustic so that it does not colour the sound too much - the use of large reverberant spaces like cathedrals is to be avoided, but a little reverberance is ok - a normally soft-furnished living room would be perfectly adequate, provided that extraneous sound sources such as phones, clocks, children etc are removed.
You have the most important ingredient for such a project, which is access to the players to provide the samples.
The other thing you should consider is that brass instruments are capable of a wide range of attack, so ideally you should aim for sets of samples with different attacks in order to make the soundfont as realistic as possible.
HTH
In reply to Today's technbology means by ChurchOrganist
Yeah, there is a lack of some specific characteristics of some instrument sounds on the standard General MIDI definition table.
I don't know if there is some "extended" General MIDI table, but in the GeneralUser GM soundfont file, there is a very large lack of technical possibilities.
I'm talking about some muted trumpet attack, rude trumpet, trombone and tuba attack, hit string sound, muted drums, brush drums and cymbals (with at least 3 different ways), etc. etc. etc.
Unfortunately, it is... what it is!!!
In reply to Yeah, there is a lack of some by jotape1960
Indeed there is Ned.....
In GM Level 2 it is possible to provide banks of variations of a particular sound.
Eg in FluidR3Mono there is an alternative Mello Grand Piano sound assigned to Bank 8
So you could define a whole spectrum of specialist sounds using this Bank system.
But also don't forget that you can use velocity splits to invoke some of these, so that high velocity will trigger a different set of samples from low velocity.
Let me know if you require further advice :)
In reply to Indeed there is Ned..... In by ChurchOrganist
Thank you ChurchOrganist for giving me so much of your time. However, after spending a few days investigating the fascinating complexities of sound font production, I have to admit such an undertaking lies well beyond my level of expertise.
I will just have to hope that someone comes up with a Brass Band template for MuseScore 2 that makes the most of its capabilities. MuseScore 1.2 contains a couple of Brass Band templates, but there doesn't seem to be any among the templates that come with MuseScore 2.
I came across S. Christian Collins GeneralUser Orchestral Example in the course of my trawling around the Internet and I was blown away by it. Now if someone could do that for a brass band ......
Many thanks. Ned
In reply to Thank you ChurchOrganist for by Ned Kelly
There are dsicussions ont he forums here about brass band tempaltes and some very good proposed ones posted for comments. Sl you might want to do a search. Meanwhile, though, it is exceedingly easy to create your own - jsut set up a score trhe way you like and save it your your Templates folder. it will be available for you to choose from next time you start MuseScore.
In reply to There are dsicussions ont he by Marc Sabatella
An excellent template from Henk De Groot is at https://musescore.org/en/node/53891#comment-339741. To install it, see https://musescore.org/en/handbook/create-new-score-0#templates.
In reply to There are dsicussions ont he by Marc Sabatella
Thank you ZackThe Cardshark. That gives me something else I can try. Ned.
In reply to There are dsicussions ont he by Marc Sabatella
Thank you Marc. This thread has turned out to be a very educational experience. Ned.
I have been using Version 1.2 for years and treasure it, so the upgrade is a disappointment.
With that in mind, MuseScore version 1.x shipped with TimGM6mb, see:
https://musescore.org/en/handbook/soundfont-0#list
TimGM6, to its credit, was at least consistently bad for all those years it served as MuseScore's default soundfont - with not a whole lot of complaints about mismatched volumes in ensembles, out of tune instruments, too much reverb, etc.
Just ask ChurchOrganist... :-)
Regards.
Musescore still not working. As I explained before in my last measure that I was writing, it is not working: the chords do not line up, and I need an 8th note to complete the 4/4 time in that measure, but it refuses to give me an 8th note, but insist on giving me a 16th note.
This is for the pipe organ, it is in 4/4 time. Anyone know how to fix this problem. Enclosing score.
In reply to Musescore still not working. by Faulknermusic
Why not continue this thread?
https://musescore.org/en/node/140781
Anyway, is this what you want?
Victory_March_of_the_Glorious_fix.mscz
Measure 12 treble clef had corrupted somehow. You can view each note's timing in the Status Bar at the bottom of the MuseScore window. It showed the half note chord being played on beat 1.75 instead of beat 1.5 (as in the bass clef). That's why they did not line up.
To fix, I copied that measure to a 'empty' spot of the score, swapped voice 1 to voice 2, deleted voice 2 - which 'fixed' the measure - then re-entered the correct notes (using the untouched measure 12 as a guide to memory). Last, I did the same 'fix' for measure 12, then cut/pasted the correct notes from the 'empty' spot back into measure 12.
Regards.