MuseScore 4 - Trouble With Duplicate Eighth Note Flags

• Jan 7, 2023 - 23:34

I've been using MuseScore to write out a hymn on two staves per system, with two vocal parts on each of the systems' staves (bass and tenor on the bass clef, alto and soprano on the treble clef).

Here's what three parallel eighth notes look like on the treble clef, one line in the alto (voice 1), and one in the soprano (voice 2), using the default opposite stems. Everything's good at this point:

Capture1.JPG

When I change the stem directions, everything gets odd. Here's with the soprano (voice 2) flipped up instead of down, with no further editing. You can see that both the eighth note beam and flag now appear as if they're sixteenth notes. But they're not, the software has just kept both beams and flags, even though the notes now share the same stems. In the screenshot, the measure is selected in such a way that you can see the two different voices.

Capture2.JPG

Now, even though it's time consuming, when I click on an eighth note beam, it gives the option to graphically edit, and one can be dragged over top of the other. Here's a beam that has been selected, showing the drag handles:
Capture3.JPG

And, after the bottom beam has been dragged over the top one:
Capture4.JPG

Now, here is where one of the standalone eighth note flags have been selected, but you can see that there are no drag handles, thus no way to graphically edit the appearance of the superfluous flags:
Capture5.JPG

In summary, it seems that a function to be able to edit the graphical appearance of the standalone eighth note flags needs to be added, in a similar fashion to how the eighth note beam editing works. Also, it would save a lot of time if the software would recognize that when eighth note stems flipped to share stems, the flags or beams would also combine.

Please let me know if I missed a setting or control in my noob-ness, or if I miss someone else's post that addresses the same issue. I did search for a matching post.

Also, thanks to the devs and the organization for providing this product.


Comments

More usually it would appear as in the first measure but sometimes as in the second.
temp_beam1.png .

To create the second, copy the first measure to the second (select the measure and press R or use Copy/Paste). Then select the second measure and goto the menu and choose Tools >Voices >Exchange voice 1-2. Voce versa for the other way.

As SsteveBlower says, below, if you want chords then create them as chords.

In reply to by Zoomstrat

They may be sung by two human voices but they are, effectively, chords (and in one Voice in MS).
Choose note duration, input F, [Shift]-A to get the F & A with one stem. Don't try to enter them as separate voices unless there are sections with notes of different length.

Your topic title throws people off the scent a bit as it seem to ask about problems with beaming.

Why are you changing the stem directions? Voices in different voices should have one voice stems up, the other stems down.

If you want the notes to share stems enter them as chords - enter note 1, then shift and enter note 2 with CTRL+down arrow to change octave if necessary.

" Also, it would save a lot of time if the software would recognize that when eighth note stems flipped to share stems, the flags or beams would also combine"
That would be horrific. This would break so many cases of overlapping/passing voices.
Either maintain the practice of voices having stems facing away from each other or create chords.

I'm new to this forum and am unsure of exactly how the notifications work. So, I'm attempting to write this single comment as an attempt to not have individual replies for everyone, especially when it's essentially the same content. Hopefully anyone that has contributed to this thread will be notified and see this comment (assuming they are still subscribed and wish to).

Several people have suggested I view everything as chords instead of individual vocal lines. Even though they are indeed four separate vocal lines (written in a standard hymnbook format), I'm ok with inputting them as chords, as it seems the software has trouble adapting the formatting otherwise.

In the screenshot below, the first measure went well. No separate note values within each staff (each part shares the same note values), so no problem. However, things got dicier in the second measure. In the bass clef, last part of the measure, the two vocal parts have different note values, so assigning voice parts are a necessity.
Capture5.JPG

Here's the first way I did it the second measure. I wrote the dotted quarter - eighth notes first as the default same voice, no problem. I then input the F half note. Here's how it looks:
Capture1.JPG

But, at that point, there doesn't seem to be any way to simply choose Voice 2 for the notes that haven't been entered yet. Instead, you have to select the previous notes for that voice part in the measure, which then breaks the stem sharing (a half rest is added automatically and not dealt with yet):
Capture2.JPG

When the bass note (Voice 1) stems are flipped back to enforce stem sharing, the duplicate eighth note flag is added:
Capture3.JPG

Now, I input the rest of the tenor notes in the last part of the measure now that Voice 2 is established in the first part of the measure. It works, but I still have the duplicate eighth note flags. I change the C eighth note to be Voice 1 instead of 2, so the duplicate flag will go away. It does, but now there is an automatically included eighth rest that cannot be selected, thus unable to be deleted or hidden (unless there's a hidden mechanism I'm unaware of):
Capture4.JPG

Here's the second way I wrote the second measure. To me it's less intuitive, but it accomplished the end goal in less steps and didn't result in the eighth rest that couldn't be hidden or deleted (to my knowledge).

After the treble clef was completely inputted, I put in the dotted quarter - eighth notes on the bass clef. I then put in an F quarter note and a C quarter note, then the A to finish the measure. To the software, the measure is completed and all the bass clef notes are Voice 1. Everything is tidy.
Capture6.JPG

But, I need the F note on the bass clef to be a half note. I select the third C and final A and make them Voice 2, then select the
F and make it a half note. I have to do some stem flipping to match the source material but it works. No rogue rests:
Capture7.JPG

As I said, it's a bit counterintuitive to me to essentially have to write it incorrectly so things can be changed to correct afterward. But, it's a minor issue (no pun intended) and it does work.

I don't know if the title of the initial post can be edited. I will try to do so, as the eighth note beaming problem has been eradicated by not using multiple voices when not expressly necessary.

Thanks to all for the discussion thus far.

In reply to by Zoomstrat

Forgive me if I've skimmed most of what you've written, because it's essentially note-entry 101 for Musescore and you just need to learn how to work with voices. At the moment you're fighting the software: "I'm ok with inputting them as chords, as it seems the software has trouble adapting the formatting otherwise."

The thing is hymn books have inked chords, there are no playable voices other than those separated out and decoded by the human brain. If you want separately playable voices in a digital score and have them rendered exactly as a printed score, then you will have to make some compromises. The score you provided is super easy to input - easily < 60 seconds when you're fluent.

What will help you is to know
1. No elements of voice 1 (blue) can be deleted, but they can be hidden (use V to toggle visibility). Get to know the Properties pane for notes so you can see more easily what is possible.
2. If a measure has multiple voices active in only one part, it is your choice as to whether or not to leave the gaps visible as rests, or to hide/delete them (see #1)
3. You can switch between voices using the voice buttons on the toolbar, and you can also use the Voice swap tool on the menu
4. Implode tool can be used to combine voices across staves.

https://musescore.org/en/handbook/3/voices
https://musescore.org/en/handbook/4/voices

In reply to by memeweaver

That hymn has voices, not chords.
Because these voices have most of the time but not always! same rhythm, and because they were printed with same direction stem, they mostly appear as chords but they are not.

Back to the "how to" asked by the O.P.:
As printed chords look exactly the same as printed voices with same direction stem, by far the easiest way to enter them in musescore is indeed to enter them as chords for all measures where the rhythm is identical between voices.
And use true voices only for measures where the rhythm is different between the 2 voices.
For these measures you can't start voice 2 out of nowhere on beat 3 in musescore. So if for example beats 1 and 2 were entered as chords on voice 1, you need to enter a silence on these beats in voice 2 to be able to start the voice 2 notes on beat 3. Once done you can delete that silence, it is just a temporary way to be able to add a beat 3 note in voice 2.

Pro of using chords to enter that hymn: quick and easy
Con: you lose the ability to select voice 2 to change playback effect or split or whatever you can do with properly entered voices.

So to come back to your original question : yes this is clearly a bug for me that same direction stem makes the 8th notes appear as sixteenth notes.

In reply to by frfancha

Don't misquote me.

I said the hymn book has chords, not the hymn. (ie the map is not the territory. ) I then elaborated on the distinction between the use of printed page and digital playback for extracting those voices.

"clearly a bug for me that same direction stem makes the 8th notes appear as sixteenth notes.". - it's being contrived to be a bug because of poor layout decisions. Musescore can't override all of those. Drawing an ambiguous picture doesn't mean the pencil is buggy.
When you've notated some heavily contrapuntal writing with many voices in a stave, you learn to use offsets to achieve clarity when there are multiple stems in the same direction.

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