Help with complicated Soler trill
I am trying to recreate/reinvent a keyboard sonata by the 18th century Spanish composer Antonio Soler. I think I am capable of figuring out almost all the notes, etc. by myself, except for one complicated trill. I want to emulate the precise sound and sequence of it, but I really don't know how.
To help you guys figure this one out, I have attached a screenshot of the sheet music I'm looking at, plus a MIDI file I downloaded. For more information, the measures for the trill are 53 to 54 and should be seen around the middle of the screen. And the MIDI file is to be opened with (or imported into) MuseScore, unless you can figure out the trill just by listening to it in the MIDI file. Help will be returned with thanks with much sincerity.
| Attachment | Size |
|---|---|
| Soler.PNG | 71.95 KB |
| soler41.mid | 13 KB |
Comments
Assuming the MIDI file is correct, I suggest opening it in MuseScore, select the measure in question and right click on it -> Piano roll to have a better view of what it's played. And then create the sheet music from scratch.
In reply to Assuming the MIDI file is by [DELETED] 5
Sorry, but I can't decipher the code in the MIDI file using the piano roll editor. While the PRE (piano roll editor) screen indicates a velocity, I can't see the duration of each note clearly indicated. Any alternatives, perhaps?
There's got to be a source for the trill that is visually clear. That is, there must be documentation of the exact notes to play. I doubt that such a technique can be duplicated by word of mouth. If I can't get the technique down on the score, I can't finish the work. And if I can't finish the work, there will be no score or midi file to share with the rest of you. You may enjoy looking at my finished product if I have it complete.
I don't see a rule against bumping my topic up too soon. And I hope my tone isn't too angry. I'm just frustrated.
Update: There has been no reply to this post for more than 22 hours.
In reply to Can't figure it out by Marcus2
I just heared a standard trill running all the measure long, beginning by the upper note.....
By the way the score you are looking at is a modern one, and the trill is yet an interpretation of the original notation....
It seems to me that it is the usual one.
for further investigation give the link to you source score and midi.
In reply to I just heared a standard by robert leleu
Thank you for responding.
Anyway, I have the score I'm working on and the MIDI file attached to this post at the bottom, like you asked.
In reply to No problem. by Marcus2
I was thinking of the score you are copying (paper or yet on the net ?)
Isn't http://216.129.110.22/files/imglnks/usimg/7/73/IMSLP49574-PMLP104321-So… ???
And is the midi file you (from mscz), or something you found on the net? and where?
From what I saw on the net, (measures 148 149) and what you have written in your mscz in measures 52 53
I would suggest a much less stressed interpretation.
But the main point is that the quickest part of the trill be at the end
of course this is highly controversial, and is to be adapted, in normal use with acoustical instrument to the instrument (organ, clavicord) and to the acoustics of the room....
In reply to I was thinking of the score by robert leleu
I believe you have an outdated version of MuseScore, for I have the latest version (0.9.6.3), and when I tried opening the file you attached, the program alerted me that "you're version of MuseScore is too old" or something. Looks like it's time for you to update the version you currently have!
I'm sorry I took so long to reply. I was quite busy today.
In reply to Error message at opening of file by Marcus2
I have an updated "unstable prerelease for 1.0.0" and I forgot to check the compatibility
I attach a .png of the relevant part .
In reply to I have an updated "unstable by robert leleu
I'm so sorry man, but it just doesn't sound right to me. And I hate to burst your bubble here, but if I printed something like this and I or another person actually played this, I'm sure Antonio Soler would be turning over in his grave.
You see, adding to written music or putting it in full sonata form, for instance, is one thing. But altering a melody or even the duration of some notes is another. In other words, the former would be good, but the latter would be bad (I think disastrous). Just my opinion.
Are you sure there's no way around this kind of thing? I hope there is, because I take this kind of stuff very seriously, and I'm proud of it too.
In reply to Proposal rejected by Marcus2
Padre Soler never intended to be played by MIDI
so anything is up to you......
In reply to Padre Soler never intended to by robert leleu
Yes, Antonio Soler didn't intend his music to be played by MIDI, and I never said he did. But if this composer were alive today, I'm sure he would have been delighted at this, as long as his trills were sequenced correctly.
I suggest two tactics here.
Tactic 1: Let's find different sheet music for the same piece in question.
Tactic 2: Let's invite an advanced pianist (preferably someone who knows the work) to be a user (if he's not one already) and join us in the forums.
Doing your proposal is just like altering a famous Mozart piece so that there's no trills (i.e. his Piano Sonata No. 16 in C major, Movement 1). And if someone heard the piece played with something substituting the trill(s), he would probably be annoyed or disappointed. At least this is the case for me.
I don't mean to annoy anyone or give them a hard time. I would just like to score key sequences/passages with precision.
In reply to Yeah, but... by Marcus2
Forgive me, but it seems like you're trying to make an audio file with MuseScore, when audio creation is only its secondary function. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that the primary function of MuseScore is to produce printed sheet music for living, breathing musicians to play. You're trying to create an audio file that correctly approximates the way a real pianist would play something, and it doesn't seem like MuseScore is going to be able to do it in a satisfactory manner for your tastes.
I am a high school band director, and I write lots of compositions and arrangements in MuseScore. When I play them back, I always know that there's no way that the computer is going to accurately express the nuances that come with human interpretation. I can try to get around that and get it as close as possible (for example, like the trill proposal that Robert created). You suggested inviting an advanced pianist in Tactic 2. MuseScore - a computer program - simply is never going to be able to create an audio file that matches the performance of an advanced human pianist. But again, my understanding is that ultimately MuseScore's primary focus is to create printed sheet music for the human pianist to play.
EDIT: Just ran across this comment at the bottom of another thread. Toward the end of Thomas's reply was:
In the MuseScore project, the primary focus has always been on typesetting. Playback comes second. And that will remain for the time being.
In reply to Yeah, BUT..... by newsome
I don't only want to use MuseScore for playback. I also want to use the program for sheet music as well. If the trills were printed out with the exact kind of notes (i.e. 32nd notes, 16th notes) in the exact same order, it would be a lot easier for a piano instructor to teach trills a student in training.
And this piece of music I'm working on happens to be one of my favorite piano/keyboard pieces by the way, which is why I want to recreate it. I aspire to compose as one of my hobbies, and I think any great composer needs to know how to write trills in note form.
What if I want to make a copy of my score and send it to a piano instructor for teaching one of his/her students? Even the instructor should be able to know how each trill goes by seeing it.
Even if I weren't focusing on playback at all, I would STILL have trouble figuring out how Soler wanted that trill to go.
If this is not the right place to discuss notating trills accurately, please provide a link to a site that focuses on this kind of stuff (i.e. a forum for composition); then I'll return to the forums and share my music with you guys. If a link can't be provided in this topic, try Emailing me via my personal contact form.
In reply to Playback is just part of it. by Marcus2
As @newsome has pointed out, MIDI is not the best manner of playback if one is aiming at an "historically correct" interpretation.
Notation is a tricky thing, especially when you are doing it in a revisionist manner. The performance practices of the 18th Century are still not so well known as to be able to provide accurate transcription and notation of HOW the notes are to be performed. The notation of ornamentation is like walking in a minefield: simply indicating a trill does not really tell the performer EXACTLY what notes to play as there are temporal-cultural performance practices that must be assumed to execute the passage. That trill/ornamentation is an indication that the performer is to play "something" but that "something" is NOT set in stone, but rather a temporal-cultural convention that is understood through training. So the "note-for-note" representation of what is to be played is not always consistent (at least until much later...).
If you are trying to write out precisely the notes to be played, then you must understand explicitly the performance practices of the time (and, idiosyncratically, the composer in question). And until the 19th Century and the ascendancy of the printed score with its "Truth" you couldn't count on being sure how the notated ornamentation was really to be played. Yes, the oral tradition is STILL that strong. Scores are STILL open to interpretation...that's one of the things that MIDI simply cannot accomodate and what keeps live performance so exciting.
I'm not trying to say you shouldn't do this, but you might try listening to more live performances of the piece before trying to re-transcribing it? You say that any "great" composer should know, but unless you are deliberately trying to write 18th century keyboard music, this is somewhat misguided. (This was what I was referring to by "revisionist.") This is 2011; there are people who can write convincingly in many historical musical styles, but if you are trying to compose original music of your own, why are you trying to emulate Soler? (Although I can certainly think of a number of worse composers to emulate...Wagner comes to mind!) Musicologically, Soler is one of the trickier figures. Spain was a bit of a rogue player in the music world of the time and the performance practices were all over the place. We're talking about a composer who studied with Domenico Scarlatti, yet may or may not have been strongly influenced by the burgeoning use of the classical guitar...he was an innovator stylistically. To compound your problem, Sonata 41 is one of three sonatas not without issues of its representation; to wit: http://imslpforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3418
For what it's worth, I'm coming at this as a lapsed lutenist who also studied harpsichord (and have played some Soler, as well as Rameau): figuring out what Dowland meant when he indicated an ornamentation in his lute tablatures continues to be a major nightmare and let's not even get into the German lute repertoire!
Good luck...
In my opinion, ornament markings were invented by people who couldn't be bothered to write the actual notes :P
In reply to In my opinion, ornament by chen lung
@chen
Amusing, but not reflective of much understanding of music history...:D
Ta!
In reply to @chen Amusing, but not by [DELETED] 704056
I'll let someone else explain the problems :)