Flamenco Guitar Music
I want to add the sign of arrow into the Arpeggio/Glissando Palette.
Rasgueado, Secco and Graneado.
And sign of Golpe. (x)
Regards,
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I want to add the sign of arrow into the Arpeggio/Glissando Palette.
Rasgueado, Secco and Graneado.
And sign of Golpe. (x)
Regards,
Do you still have an unanswered question? Please log in first to post your question.
Comments
Could you provide visual examples of these symbols. Are there English names for these symbols?
In reply to Could you provide visual by David Bolton
Thank you!
This is sample view.
arrow.pdf
Sorry, I don't know these names in English.
Hi
I would like to know if there has been any progress regarding flamenco notation. I see that the information previously given here in this feature request was not sufficient in order to implement something like this. I would like to help if I can.
Generally it can be said that there is not just one "Flamenco Notation". I have several books an ALL of theme use a different notation. But basically it is still the same. Only the symbols and the location of the symbols vary. I think there is quite a usable example in the lilypond manual (
Although I think that I could be improved): http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/input/lsr/lilypond-snippets/Fretted-strin…
The arrows are used to explain how to play the "Rasgueados". From Wikipedia: "Strumming done with outward flicks of the right hand fingers, done in a huge variety of ways. A nice rhythmic roll is obtained, supposedly reminiscent of the bailador’s (flamenco dancer's) feet and the roll of castanets. The rasgueo can be performed with 5, 4, or 3 fingers." --> My comment: It can easily also be performed with two fingers.
So this makes it necessary to define a finger for each stroke. In the lilypond example it is indicated above the arrow (p = thumb, i = index, m = middle, a = ring, x = little finger --> sometimes it is also necessary to use two fingers together. This would be indicated e.g. with "ma" which means middle and ring together). By the way: In the example score provided by tkamura there is a special horizontal array for "the double" rasgueado. I've never seen it before and it is not necessary because you can describe any rasgueado with the vertical arrows. It seems to be a special "shortcut" for a particular rasgueado. The notation in the lilypond is far more "self-explaining" and commonly used.
Rasgueado Example: see e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkgTxtvpJ28
The arrows are also used to inidicate the "alzapua". From Wikipedia: "Alzapúa: A thumb technique which has roots in oud plectrum technique. The right hand thumb is used both up and down for single-line notes and/or strumming across a number of strings. Both are combined in quick succession to give it a unique sound."
For the alzapua the same arrows could be used. A finger indication is not really required because it is always played with the thumb. But often the thumb is indicated to show that it is to be played as "alzapua". Another possiblity would be to add a kind of comment saying "alzapua".
Alzapua Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7uf_U6DMQA
The golpe is quite simple. In some books it is shown a Square and in others as an asterix (*) above the note. From Wikipedia: "Golpe: Percussive finger tapping on the soundboard at the area above or below the strings. This requires a golpeador (tap-plate) to protect the surface of the guitar."
The books to usually not indicate if the golpe is performed by tapping in the area above or below. It is normally obvious where you have to do it depending on the current context. A golpe can be played on its own or together with other notes. So it should be possible to place a square (my preffered symbol) or an asteriks above a note or a break.
Golpe example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4anJ_LfIr4E
A secco could be rendered as percussive notes and does not really require something new in musescore. From wikipedia: "Seco: A technique where the left hand damps the strings at the chordal tonic and the right hand plays purely rhythmic components. This creates a chugging like sound that greatly accents the rhythm, allowing the singer or dancer to play off the beat, creating a strong contra-tempo feel."
Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmpyQMClxBs (the secco part start around 0:13 until 0:20)
These are the main requirements in my opinion. There are other techniques. But those are mainly the same as in classic guitar playing and already can be notated with musescore (from Wikpedia):
" Picado: Single-line scale passages performed by playing alternately with the index and middle fingers, supporting the other fingers on the string immediately above. Alternate methods include using the thumb rapidly on adjacent strings, as well as using the thumb and index finger alternately, or combining all three methods in a single passage.
Tremolo: Rapid repetition of a single treble note, often following a bass note. Flamenco tremolo is different from classical guitar tremolo, it is usually played with the right hand pattern p-i-a-m-i which gives a 4 note tremolo. classical guitar tremolo is played p-a-m-i giving a 3 note tremolo. Or it may be used as an ornament to a chord, in which case it is done on the highest chord string finishing with a thumb across all the strings that make the chord. This creates a very quick trill followed by a full bodied thumb."
It would be very nice if someone could implement something like that. Please let me know. I could provide you with different examples and recommendations. I also transcribed quite a nice piece from Moraito (it's the same as for the secco example) which we could you for test purposes (I transcribed it from a video on youtube: see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmpyQMClxBs)
Thanks and regards
Oliver
In reply to Flamenco Notation by olijaun
I use single line percussion for golpe, that way it sounds on play back. I have a large amount of guitar music written in sibelius 2.0 and I am transfering it to musecore as I like open source, I did this by downloading the 30 day trial sibelius 7.5 and converting to musicxml and then opening with musescore. Many things have not come out. I have had much experience notating flamenco and there are usually much better ways of doing things than the many ways in which it has previously been done. For example for a downstroke with the index fingur just write i under the chord for the upstroke write iu, that is unambiguous. I can send people sibelius 2.0 files if they are of use, anything in musescore will have to wait until I have got the hang of it. Anyone want to start up a facebook or linkedin or both group called something like notating flamenco?
In reply to I use single line percussion by macrobbair
You can create a MuseScore group for Flamenco https://musescore.com/groups
Regarding MusicXML, if you would have specific elements that are in Sibelius but are not in MuseScore when you import MusicXML. We could take a look to see it's because Sibelius doesn't export it or MuseScore doesn't import it.
Group set up. One thing that I am having problems is the single line of percussion that I used to notate golpe has become 5-line, and I am having problems redoing it as "wood block single line" which is the closet to it in sound appears below the guitar instead of above.
In reply to Group set up. One thing by macrobbair
Normally, you'd select the staff type in Edit / Instruments - just select "Percussion 1 line". If that doesn't help, you can post the score you are having problems with here and someone should be able to advise you.
In reply to Normally, you'd select the by Marc Sabatella
I have over a thousand sib2.0 files which I am trying to get into a more durable form. The flamenco guitar ones look as if they are going to take a lot of work. First problem is that the "clef" I use is octave treble this has come across ok with a single line of percusion above which is often hidden, this has not come across ok nothing is hidden and 5 lines have come across, no idea what to do about this. The second problem is that the way that flamenco is usually notated involves a huge amount of up and down arrows and assorted lines, none of these have come across; years of experience have taught me better ways of doing this, for example traditionally a downstroke with the index fingure would be a large vertical arrow from well below the stave to its top with an "i" on it, this became a small arrow under the stave with an "i" and eventually just an "i" which is unambigious, for the upstroke instead o a large arrow across the stave with an "i" on it just an "iu" under the stave, and so on. Not sure what files I can post, some are examples from well known flamenco books and presuambly there is a copyright problem; some are my own compositions which I want to keep to myself for now - mainly because I want to check that they are copyrighted before doing anything.
In reply to I have over a thousand sib2.0 by macrobbair
You can change the number of lines for a staff by right clicking, choosing Staff Properties, then changing the numebr of lines. For percussion specifically, you can also swithc betwene 1, 3, and 5 lines staves via Edit / Instruments.
Your work is already fully protected by copyright law the moment you write it down, record it, or otherwise "fix it in tanglible form" to use the phrase from US copyright (it's the same concept in other countries),. So no need to worry - just post the files you are having trouble with and someone should be able to help.
In reply to You can change the number of by Marc Sabatella
I have uploaded my first score, for violin instead of guitar as there are less problems. First thing as it is traditional is it better to have a creative commons licence rather than an all rights reserved? Next I have a page of A4 of typesetting problems, where can I type them up in case anyone is interested?
In reply to I have uploaded my first by macrobbair
I see the score. If you have specific questions about it, feel free to post them.
In reply to Group set up. One thing by macrobbair
hi there, where is the group please???
In reply to hi there, where is the group… by ruidoflamenco
Can you explain your question in more detail?
Do I put my side of A4 typesetting problems here or next to the score? Incidently the original question is a good one musescore does not seem to have as many arrows as sibelius and arrows and lines come in everywhere in the way that flamenco is often notated.
In reply to Do I put my side of A4 by macrobbair
The forum - here - is to the place to ask questions and get help. So if you are having problems with a specific score, you should post it here, as an attachment to the thread where you ask your questions. Probably best to start a new thread, in the Support forum.
I hope to type up in about 12 hours time. How do I link from the thread to the score? How do I add the score to flamenco groups?
In reply to I hope to type up in about 12 by macrobbair
Just attach the score to the thread itself - use the "File attachments" button right below where you type your score. Since you have already uploaded the socr,e you could simply paste the link into your message, but in the future, it's best to simply attach the score to the post.
I'm not sure exactly what you are planning to type up, but generally, if you have multiple question to ask or multiple issue to report, it is best to have separate threads for each, to keep the discussion focused and to make it easier for people to find help in the future by searching for previous discussions.
In reply to Just attach the score to the by Marc Sabatella
https://musescore.com/user/158745/scores/883681
could not find support threads so I will put up everything here:
tempo marking, can I use crochet = rather than a temp name
bars 1,2,3 stacatto dot is connected to the wrong voice
bar 4 no rest for the lower voice beat one, the attaching inviible lign for the col legno is to the wrong place, how do I aleter it or is it easier to delet and re enter?
bar 5 no beam cross th etriplet, last beat l.h. pizz top note should have stem down, can play back do arco and pizz at the same time?
bars6&7 same as 5
bar 8 a lot of decay on the lower voice g the notation just means let the open string ring
bar 9 initial grace note should be aecb
bars 10,11 same as 5
bar 12 same as 8, I have done somthing to the stem of the 4th quaver how do I get it back to normal?
bar 13 they should be all down bows cannot get the symbol to stick
bar 14 as before
bars15,16,17 no new problems
bar 18 same as 8
bar 19,20,21 ok
bar 22 same as 8
bar 23 the invisible line conecting falsetta 2 looks wrong
bars 23,24 25 this will test your bowing
bar 26 same as 8
bars 27 -38 all ok - this is guitar figuation much adjusted for the violin by me
bar 39 same problems as the first section
last bar the second to last note is a harmonic, cannot getthe 15th symbol to stick
In reply to https://musescore.com/user/15 by macrobbair
To find the support forum, click where it says "Forums" to the the right of this page. You'll see a list of forums. The very first one is "Support and bug reports". If you click that, you will see a list of the threads in that forum, but as I said, you should start new ones, one for each separate question (it's OK to group related ones together). You'll see the "Post new forum topic" link right below the forum title while viewing the forum. And do post the score itself as an attachment to the threads you create.
As it is, there really isn[t a way to answer most your questions. For instance, I don't know what you did to attach the staccato dots to the notes you attached them to or what notes you want them attached to instead. I miht guess you created this score in another program then imported it via MusicXML, but without seeing the MusicXML file you started with, there is no way for us to know that those really are wrong. As far as I can tell, MuseScore is simply showing you what is actually in your original MusicXML file. If your question is, how do you move the dots to different notes than the ones you originally attached them to, the answer is, delete them and re-add them. Since "Shift+S" is a toggle, you can do this in one step, by selecting both the right & wrong notes and press Shift+S - it will simultaneously remove dots from notes that have them and add them to notes that don't.
For tempo markings, yes, these can be added using Alt+T and they default to using metronome markings. Stem directions are as for dots - as far as I can tell form the information provided, MuseScore is doing what you asked, but if you are now changing your mind and want a different stem direction for some note, select it and press "X".
For other questions, it really is best to start a new thread in the support forum - one thread per question or set of related questions - and please be as precise as possible in your questions. If posting the original MusicXML would be necessary for us to understand the question, then post that too.
In reply to https://musescore.com/user/15 by macrobbair
To start with that score is corrupt. I wonder how you've been able to upload it in the first place, as the same sanity check happened before 'Save Online'.
Measure 5 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 6 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 7 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 9 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 10 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 11 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 14 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 3/4; Found: 7/8
Measure 39 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 40 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 41 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 43 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 44 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 45 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Measure 48 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 3/4; Found: 7/8
Measure 49 Staff 1 incomplete. Expected: 13/16; Found: 315/384
Which staccato dots are attach to the wrong voices, there are many
The missing rest in bar 4, voice 2, can get recovered by swapping voice 1 and 2 twice
The missing beam in measure 5 is due to the invisible rests between the notes, this also is the source for corruption, same for many other measures
In reply to To start with that score is by Jojo-Schmitz
Apparently that score was created in 1.3 or earlier. So first step in solving problems is definitely, update to the latest version, 2.0.1. Then re-import the MusicXML file. If you still see problems, then again, start new thread or threads, include the actual MusicXML file. Do be aware, though, that MusicXML import is never goign to provide a perfect reproduction of how a score looked in some other program that uses different engraving algorithms. It's meant to give you a starting point for further editing by bring over the notes and rest and basic markings that have standardized representations.
I am not sure whether this comment is going in at the correct place it seems to be the top of the thread rather than the bottom. Linux mint package manager installed musescore version 1.3 I have just been trying to install version 2.0.1 without success. I have over 1,000 sibelius 2.0 files, I downloaded the trial version of sib7 and batch converted them to .musicxml, is it going to be quicker to use these files to retype the lot from the beginning?
In reply to I am not sure whether this by macrobbair
It looks like you are asking a general question about MuseScore on Linux Mint and Sibelius, not specifically anything to do with the subject of flamenco music. So it would be better to start a new thread in the future when asking new asking. There are previous discussions of Linux Mint, so you might start by looking for those, but if you don't find one on that specific topic, just start your own thread, and describe precisel;y step by step what you are trying to do and what goes wrong when you do it.
As for using MusicXML, in general, it's great for importing the basic notes and rests anbd some markings, but expect to spend time on the formatting. If the score was more about the formatting than the the notes, then maybe you don't save time, but for most scores with any substance, MusicXML is better than starting from scratch. Still, I wouldn't be in a hurry to do all 1000 scores - I'd be doing it more on an as-needed basis.
In reply to It looks like you are asking by Marc Sabatella
I'll look around for how to update on linux mint, I tried yesterday to update from 1.3 to 2.0 but the machine seemed to think that 1.3 musescore was the most recent. What I am hoping to do is play on instruments about 100 of them and up date or retype the files as I need them. For a starter flamenco question: the best clef to use is treble with an octave 8 underneath and a single percussion line above for golpe (taps), this plays back best one uses nylon guitar for the treble clef and woodblock for the percussion line; problems are: 1)how to get the percussion line above the treble clef instead of the default below, 2)how to suppress the percussion line, a lot of the time it is not needed, 3)is it possible to have flamenco guitar on the instrument list with treble clef + percussion line? is it something that one can do for ones own version or can one put in a request for the next version of musescore or both?
In reply to I'll look around for how to by macrobbair
In the same dialog where you add the percussion staff, use the Up / Down buttons to change order of the staves. Or to re-order them later, Edit / Instruments (I think it's under Create in 1.3).
To suppress a staff where it is not needed, use Style / General / Hide Empty Staves.
The instrument list is just that - a list of individual instruments. Not combinations of instruments; that's what templates are for. In 2.0, you can simply save a score to your own Templates folder. Creating a template in 1.3 is more complicated and requires administrator rights to write to MuseScore's template folder.
In reply to In the same dialog where you by Marc Sabatella
I have got musescore 2.0 to install without sound on wine, still have not got version 2 to install on mint still have 1.3 there. What do I do about corruption of file mentioned above? I think the best thing to do once I have the hang of things is to post what I recommend is the best way to notate simple flamenco guitar figuration, followed by what is the closest sound, followed by how things have been notated in the past. The closest sound will cause problems as there is a lot of just off quavers in ratio of things like 4:3, no idea how to do that at the moment. Traditional way of notating flamenco will also cause problems - there are arrow and lines everywhere.
In reply to I have got musescore 2.0 to by macrobbair
If you are having problems with a corrupt scor,e as always, pleasew start a new thread for that topic, and attach the score you are having problems with. if the score is already corrupt, there isn't a whole lot to be done other than suggest ways of cleaning it up, but if you can figure out the steps that led to the corruption in the first place, that would be more useful. Either, way, starting new threads for new topics is extrenemly important in keeping these discussion organized and easy to follow.
In reply to If you are having problems by Marc Sabatella
I'll try new threads for corrupt score and installation problems and try to keep this one for flamenco.
In reply to I'll try new threads for by macrobbair
I finally managed to install musescore2 using synaptic. Here are some symbol problems that need to be thought about to write flamenco. Once a symbol has been selected in the master palette how does one actually get it into the score? Are arrow lenghts adjustable? One symbol that is not there is a single hook line - like Ped__| but without the Ped. Tremolo - how to repeat a note or chord 3,5,7... times, it needs the stem from the note to be slashed and have an italic 7 to the right of the slash, no idea about playback; using this is a vast improvement on how flamenco is usually notated, usually one gets chords written out again and again repeatedly this takes up a lot of ink and is difficult to read. Next fingering: the default rh little finger seems to be c instead of e, I prefer e as in Juan Martin tutor but c is common, so this is ok, but the size of the fingering the default appears to be too large, I like it small but not tiny. There does not seem to be position symbols such as II or VI presumably one can put them in as text. There does not seem to be bar symbols, these are used in classical guitar music as well, I think in latex they would be something like \texfrac{1}{2}{\overline {\underline CV}} or \texfrac{4}{6}{\overline{\underline BVII}}. Finally for now, the instrument is labelled classical guitar, many aficionados will react against this, just guitar or gtr would be better.
In reply to I finally managed to install by macrobbair
It is better to have separate threads for separate questions, especially when the current thread is already hopeless long and hard to follow as it is. But I will try to answer here for now, but please try to get in the habit of starting new threads for new questions - and a separate thread for each questions or sewt of related question (eg, several questions about finger could be in the same thread, but question about tremolo are unrelated and should be in a different thread, etc).
Symbols from the master palette are added like other palette symbols - either drag & drop to the specific element you want to attach it to, or click the score element first then double click the palette symbol.
Lines are added from the Lines palette, and they are customizable - after adding one, right click to show Line Properties, then you can add or remove hooks, text, etc. Assuming you want lines to show positions, this is also how you'd add the text (note there is already one such line on the palette to get you started.
Font size for fingerings and other text is set using Text Style - eg, right click a finger, select that from the context menu. Fingerings can be editing like any other text, so if you prefer "e", simply edit it to say that. You can also customize the palette to have that symbol available for future use - see the Handbook and search for "custom".
If you have further questions, again, please start new threads.
In reply to It is better to have separate by Marc Sabatella
Thanks for your reply. It took me about 20 mins to find this thread again, I must be missing an easier way. I hope to start up threads on tremelo and barre soon. When I first started using sibelius it took me about an hour to put all the lines in some flamenco bars, I think that the thing to do is not try and reproduce how things are written in the old tutors but simply try and do everything the best way and hope everyone else follows...
Next problem, I have been trying for the last 15 mins but still no idea how to start a new thread
In reply to Thanks for your reply. It by macrobbair
Choose the forum you want to post into and click on "Post New Forum Topic".
You can see all the forum posts you created or participated here
https://musescore.org/en/user/59555
In reply to Thanks for your reply. It by macrobbair
Also, when someone posts a reply to a thread you started, you should an email notifying you, and then all you have to do is click the link in that email and you are taken directly there.
In reply to Also, when someone posts a by Marc Sabatella
Two threads on tremolo and barre started. There does not seem to be a link from profile to contributor and they both have different user number. The email address is the same one that my job rejection letters go to, it takes some mental preparation to open it and musescore is the last thing on my mind....